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View Diary: Glenn Greenwald advocates letting Republicans destroy the country (278 comments)

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  •  The HR is because it's a false statement. n/t (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    corvo, Lost and Found, Little

    I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

    by Just Bob on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 02:35:28 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  You can't disprove it (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      jshooper

      any more than you could disprove "There are many tea party Republicans on this site who want to undermine the Democratic Party / progressive politics"

      One could take issue with the statement of many but as people have noted here and proven time and again, there are any number of people here who espouse varying political orthodoxies from Socialist to Tea Party or some combination. Some have openly said they are Libertarian or are obvious Tea Party; others hide it. How many is many is a matter of perspective. That they come to convince rather than be convinced seems the norm.

      •  Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof (6+ / 0-)

        Let's allow the claimant to present his evidence.

        Or we can just allow another wedge to divide us.

        Solidarity.

        I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

        by Just Bob on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 03:08:34 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  First, there is nothing extraordinary (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jshooper, Hey338Too, amsterdam

          to the claim there are many of a libertarian bent who hold accounts at Daily Kos unless one missed the early Ron Paul/Gary Johnson debates.

          As for solidarity, if it abides here, the sux/rox wars are nonexistent and we know that's not the case. The solidarity I see in this diary is an attempt to shut down a new user's voice. One may find him wrong in his assessment of ideas but the HR abuse is staggering.

          •  Libertarian in the sense of "not authoritarian" (5+ / 0-)

            maybe.  In the sense of "pot smoking Republicans" Not so much.

            I gladly embrace the former definition.

            You may think that. I couldn't possibly comment.-- Francis Urqhart

            by Johnny Q on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 04:14:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The least capitalist and statist (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Free Jazz at High Noon, poco

              one is, the more libertarian (in other words, in support of freedom). The more capitalist, and statist, the more authoritarian.

              The reason the original libertarians reject the right wing usage is due to its adherence to capitalism and the resulting hierarchy and enslavement of workers, and the lack of true democracy in the workplace and community. Capitalism is essentially authoritarian, due to the false authority placed in private property ownership, and the resulting wage-slavery and boss/worker hierarchy forced on the majority working class.

              And capitalism does in fact require a state enforcement apparatus to protect property "rights' and keep the working class in their assigned roles as servants to the owning class. Thus, anarchists view capitalism, and the state which supports it, as inherently violent and authoritarian.

              Maybe capitalist "libertarians" of the left could use "civil liberties" to name their preferences, right wingers should dispense with using the term altogether,  and anarchists, the real libertarians, should continue using the term as they have for the last 150 years.

              "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

              by ZhenRen on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 11:49:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  We were flooded with Paulites prior to election (2+ / 0-)

            I don't know if they were Kossocks or trolls.

            As to rux/sux, if I went there I'd just be driving the wedge deeper. I'm not going there.

            I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

            by Just Bob on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 04:19:49 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  No evidence (5+ / 0-)

            There's no evidence of groups of libertarians here who want to undermine the Democratic Party, there's no evidence either of groups who want to shut down discussion of race and racism, and no evidence either that these imagined groups would have any overlap.  This sounds like CT stuff.

            These seem to be false charges designed to smear the site.  You can debate whether this comment meets the standard of "simply inflammatory, simply off-topic, or simply a lie", but I think reasonable arguments can be made for all of the above.

            At any rate it's clearly not worthy of an uprate.  

      •  I'll go further (6+ / 0-)

        How exactly does a new user how such things. I'm smelling a stinky sock puppet.

        I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

        by Just Bob on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 03:15:07 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Drat! "new user know such things" n/t (4+ / 0-)

          I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

          by Just Bob on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 03:16:04 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  He "lurked for years" (9+ / 0-)

            Certainly knows what buttons to push, and certainly came here with a big-ass chip on his shoulder already in place wrt DKOS.

            smh

            (blank stare)

            •  Yes. n/t (4+ / 0-)

              I'm a Vietnam Era vet. I'm also an Erma Bombeck Era vet. When cussing me out and calling me names please indicate which vet you would like to respond to your world changing thoughts.

              by Just Bob on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 03:25:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I can't stand Glenn Greenwald (9+ / 0-)

              I never have been able to abide him for a multiplicity of reasons, not the least of which is that he randomly and senselessly insulted a poster on this site who is very dear to many, myself included. His work, as a messenger, has largely been effective however in the case of the NSA. I also have been open about my strong dislike of Ron-Paul style Libertarians (whom I completely distinguish from Anarchists, as ZhenRen well points out in above comments -- I have known many Anarchists in my life, and many were good people with strong views that only abut some of my Marxist-inflected views -- a fairly classic schism in thought). Most Libertarians that I know are a mixed up lot of conservatives who smoke pot and don't realize they're conservative, here in California, more or less.

              And it does NOT take any particular talents, despite my personal dislike of Glenn Greenwald AND Libertarians (who do infiltrate Progressive politics through Paul-esque channels; this is ancient news, however, although some here also seem cozy enough with Paul, too cozy for my personal liking)... despite these things, it does not take any special talents or perceptual acumen to notice that this diarist is just playing this site in a classic flame-war game, contributing nothing but division and uproar to the conversation, which I've stayed out of to avoid the proverbial troll-feeding which at this point, I have to wonder why people still indulge at all.

              The diarist herself has admitted to enjoying sowing discord here in order to confuse Progressives. That was posted right in her own words on Bob Cesca's site. The diarist's sole contributions here are pure and classic online flame-bait. Regardless of someone's interest in the content of the diary, none of it has been particularly revelatory, and some is even off-base outright (although probably not that there has always been some operation chaos within the small ranks of Libertarians toward Progressives who are young or naive or desperate for someone who is anything but status quo, even if it means the proverbial out of the frying pan and into the fire scenario of falling over themselves to defend the likes of moronic bigots like Rand or Ron Paul).

              Is this diarist trolling?

              What else does one call this?

              For those who are uprating and supporting, I am earnestly bewildered: I reiterate that this diarist openly has stated pleasure at sowing discord at confusing Progressives, and all of her actions here support that statement. Don't be seduced by an ideological alignment in a way that will be a regrettable stain upon ones' own credibility in the future. Regardless of ones' political views.

              This diarist would be best left to lapse into obscurity, IMHO. She will otherwise continue the hair-on-fire schtick to the embarrassment of everyone feeding into such rubbish.

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 08:28:47 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let me say that comments like "the usual suspects" (8+ / 0-)

                don't help either, and all that these do is further fan the same flames of division that this diarist helps sow, and that some here obviously also are clamoring for.

                It's not an "us" and "them" world. Nor should it be. Actually, if we were all in the same room together, we'd be pretty embarrassed about the way people talk about one another here. I think we should stop it with the "usual suspects" chatter too, and all of the other tit-for-tat nonsense. We have plenty of political camaraderie to be found, and part of what we can do to combat the memes being spread here is to embrace that camaraderie, no matter how tenuous it may be at times, instead of to behave divisively as if there were people who neatly fit into "category A" or "category B."

                People are much more politically complex than that. We can actually learn from people we disagree with as well.

                The commentary here is nearly as toxic as the diary, in some cases. It's time for reparations if we truly dislike the tenor of this diary.

                Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                by mahakali overdrive on Sun Dec 15, 2013 at 08:47:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I like what you've written about the complexity (6+ / 0-)

                  of dkos membership. While you and I haven't agreed on some things, I agree very much with the observation of the complexity among participants defying the usual binary division that people seem to believe exists here.

                  We could all get along better if we remember that... and it is so easy to get sucked into a faction, and then get pegged as if representing all which that faction implies, rather than be perceived as a complex individual with a spectrum of thoughts and views.

                  For example, I know you are a socialist. Some who are in the faction which I've been presumably part of are capitalist (albeit very liberal mixed capitalists, with some socialistic views). And some socialists support the Democratic party and the conventional electoral process, which complicates things, and some capitalists don't, which further complicates things.

                  Clearly, we're not as easily contrasted as it appears at first glance.

                  I suppose I'm at a far end of this spectrum, in that I don't support capitalism, the state, or the unfairness of the electoral process. But I would find commonality with a socialist in ways I wouldn't with a Keynesian. So... maybe we all need to rethink the binary approach a lot of us tend to accept.

                  So, just my rec to your comment, and my compliment to your post, will likely be judged as a stigmatizing behavior... this just gets crazy.

                  "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                  by ZhenRen on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 01:00:15 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Completely, that's true, sadly (5+ / 0-)

                    I have a lot to say in response but am packing for a short trip out of town. But overall, absolutely agreed (and I don't support capitalism either, not one bit). I agree that we should rethink 1. the binary way we think about people and 2. how we stigmatize others who don't fit into our political points of view.

                    It's not always just what you say but also whether or not you say it in a way that is meant to promote dialogue, even when difficult: honesty and respectful conversation never preclude one another.

                    Okay, back to packing now. I apparently own no socks? Not a big surprise...

                    Stigmas are absurd. We really, really need to all fight those on one another's behalf, and also, to resist the urge in ourselves to stigmatize. Even when we're not perfect, critical thinking is about looking inward and thinking about what we can do to be better people; I think better politics ensue from that.

                    So like I said, so much to say, but little time to say it, so my apologies if this is roughly stated. It's basically just a big thumb's up.

                    Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

                    by mahakali overdrive on Mon Dec 16, 2013 at 01:36:35 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  WTF is this supposed to be a new attack on me? (0+ / 0-)
                The diarist herself
                right in her own words
                You've posted in my other diaries...

                Why are you now pretending I'm a woman?

                This place just gets weirder and weirder.

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