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View Diary: Federal judge strikes down Utah's gay marriage ban (142 comments)

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  •  i've known pro-equality mormons (3+ / 0-)
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    Mikey, Cardinal Fang, RainyDay

    as with any group, the more educated, and the more traveled, the more likely to be progressive on this issue.  There are yet others who can be brought around to the position of separating personal beliefs from legal enactments.  Writing HAHAHAHAHA is both ignorant of LDS members' diversity and in no way calibrated towards winning over new voices.  Be happy for the people who benefit from the right to marry, not the people who lost (less than you think).  When the law falls in Arkansas, it's not ha-ha Baptists, and when it fell in New Mexico, it wasn't ha-ha Catholics.   The fact that some Mormons are ok with polygamy while the official church is against it should put you on notice that the members are not monolithic in their views.

    Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

    by Loge on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 02:06:25 PM PST

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    •  Thank you for your lesson (2+ / 0-)
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      Ellid, cocinero

      Its too bad you didn't read my post and completely missed "some".

      You also fail to acknowledge that the Mormon Church was one of the primary spenders behind the Prop H8 initiative in California.  Whether or not some of the members of that church actually support equal rights for gay people, the fact is if they gave money to their church that money was spend on denying gays equal rights.  So frankly the Mormon Church can go fuck themselves.  Same goes for the Catholic Church or any other institution that proactively engages in efforts to deny gay people equal rights.      

      This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

      by DisNoir36 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 02:11:17 PM PST

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      •  i was not under an obligation to mention that, (1+ / 0-)
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        high uintas

        so it's not a failure.  If you had said the LDS Church would have a sad, sure.  No dispute about the Romneys being upset (though I'm not sure they actually do care).  The "some" specifically referred to those who approved of polygamy, and your original comment comprised mormons as a whole, and the all caps made the rest of it read that way.  You were also disputing my own use of the term "some," so I'm not sure where you get the high ground.  

        The argument about tithing is only one you can make by thoroughly discounting the very idea that it's an obligation.  Pro-equality Mormons don't come to the position lightly, but what will change the church is people from within, not by stereotyping its members as automatic bigots, which is partly what has made it fairly insular to begin with.   (It's also a formulation on your part that is utterly inconsistent with your attempt to rewrite your own posts, by the way.)  Prop 8 is no longer the law.  This law, for now, is no longer the law.  If the significance of these rulings for you is that the LDS church hierarchy is having a bad day, you're entitled to that position, and I'm entitled to say it's unfair.

        Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

        by Loge on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 02:22:15 PM PST

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        •  Oh good god (1+ / 0-)
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          You were not under any obligation because you didn't want that fact mentioned.  It undermines your position completely.  The fact is and will remain that the Mormon Church as an institution supported a proposal that barred same sex couples from having equal rights.  Even AFTER those rights were given.  Whether Prop 8 is or isn't law any longer does not change that fact.  THEY SUPPORTED THE REMOVAL OF EQUAL RIGHTS TO GAY COUPLES IN THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA.  

          Members of the church are required to tithe but they are NOT obligated to be members of the church.  So whether or not pro-equality members had difficulty with that position, if they remained members and gave money to the Mormon Church then they didn't feel strongly enough about that issue to do anything about it.  Their money went into the same pot which financially supported Prop 8.  That was THEIR choice.  They chose to financially support an institution that promoted bigotry and indirectly their money went to proactively promote bigotry.  

          So you can call it unfair all you want but the only thing that was unfair was the fact that the Mormon Church promoted the elimination of already granted rights to gay couples in California.    

          This is your world These are your people You can live for yourself today Or help build tomorrow for everyone -8.75, -8.00

          by DisNoir36 on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 03:31:44 PM PST

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          •  it wasn't germane to my argument (0+ / 0-)

            which is that not all mormons believe the specific things about marriage equality as the church does.  You have every right to bring it up if you think it supports your argument, and evidently no problem doing so.

            I obviously have no difficulty not being Mormon, and therefore have a strong streak going of not giving them 10% of my money, but that's because I'm not one.  If i believe it was the path to salvation, it'd be a tougher lift.  What you say is true on some level, but on a very superficial one.  It's tantamount to saying that because you and I are not mormons, then not only shouldn't others be, but they really aren't either, if walking away is so easy.  That attitude, that one can't be pro-equality and pro-momon, is evidently something my friends are fighting on both sides.   Of course, from an outsider perspective, it's easy to say that if they "really" supported equal rights, they' leave the church, but all that goes to show is that it's the outsider perspective.  At best, it shows that marriage equality is not the most important thing in those person's lives, but honestly, that's true of a lot of people who support it.  As someone who supports it, doesn't believe in a church, and agrees with the party whose platform endorses it, I've never had these values come into conflict, so I can't stand here and judge what someone should do when some of them do, and my opinion of the Book of Mormon isn't worth anything to a practicing Mormon, never having read it or seen the play (tickets are expensive, and the only way to get them here is to buy group packages for other shows, but never mind).  

            Note as well that at no point did I defend the official church position -- where there's unfairness is to people who are doing a lot more than you or me to change the attitudes of individual mormons and therefore the church, on the ground level and from within.  Your attitude makes that harder, because it reinforces the notion that to be pro-equality is to be anti-mormon, which is as I express support for equality, false.  

            Remember when you were trying to say they you didn't actually tar all Mormons with the bigotry brush, by the way?  Your attitude just comes off as a bit churlish on what should be a day of celebration for all the gay mormons and non-mormons who now have equal rights in the beehive state, that's all.  

            Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

            by Loge on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 04:31:34 PM PST

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    •  and the younger ones too. (3+ / 0-)
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      catwho, Loge, Cassandra Waites

      The Mormons of today are like the American Catholics of 1960: on the verge of an avalanche of antidogmatism.  And how beautifully ironic that

      as with any group, the more educated, and the more traveled
      the missionary work of their young elders has had a lot to do with the increasing world-openness of young Mormons.

      Yeah, the great majority of Mormons are still opposed, but their tolerance level rises almost by the day.  You can tell by the increasingly conciliatory (desperate?) tones on the part of the LDS leadership on this issue.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 02:16:55 PM PST

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    •  When I attended my 10th high school (7+ / 0-)

      reunion, my Physics lab partner who I used to argue religion with (she was Mormon and I was going through my fundie phase), showed up with her same-sex partner, an attractive older woman. Certainly there are pro-equality Mormons, just as there are pro-equality Catholics. The question is what the hierarchy is going to do. Could be they'll see the lucrative value in a "divine revelation" stating that married gays also have a place in the Kingdom, that the strictures against homosexuality only applied to those single gays sleeping around and stuff.

      There's only one rule that I know of, babies -- goddammit, you've got to be kind. -- Kurt Vonnegut

      by Cali Scribe on Fri Dec 20, 2013 at 02:23:29 PM PST

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    •  Mormans into leather. (0+ / 0-)

      They exist, too.

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