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View Diary: "Football is just 100 n*****s getting cheered by white women." (379 comments)

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  •  On my visits to Ohio (43+ / 0-)

    (Columbus area) I'm hearing more open racism than I have in my life. People seem to have no problem using the "n" word in ordinary conversation. All taboos are lifted, apparently. Right wing talk radio has made it acceptable.

    The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.― Neil deGrasse Tyson

    by maggiejean on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 03:35:24 PM PST

    •  I think it's too easy to blame RW radio (22+ / 0-)

      I heard this stuff as a kid in Missouri all the time.  I think it has much more to do with an ingrained racism combined with the legacies of segregation--too many folks never interact with people unlike themselves, especially in the South and Midwest.

      RW radio doesn't help, though....

      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

      by dizzydean on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 03:39:25 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I Lived In Columbus 30 Years and Never Heard (29+ / 0-)

        such talk openly, other than from some ethnic bluecollars.

        The rightwing made a decision to shift to public racism with the election of Obama. This is new.

        We are called to speak for the weak, for the voiceless, for victims of our nation and for those it calls enemy.... --ML King "Beyond Vietnam"

        by Gooserock on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 03:48:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  you never met my great aunt (15+ / 0-)

          She lived in Columbus for 45 years, and never drove.  She took the bus to work everyday, and if the bus stopped for her and the driver was Black, she'd wait for the next bus.  I guess you could do that 35 years ago.  Today, that would turn a 20 minute bus trip into a 3 1/2 hour bus trip.

          Columbus is the least "Black" of Ohio's 3 major cities, but still pretty segregated.  The burbs are pretty damned White.  I don't know Cleveland at all, but have been to Cincinnati numerous times.  Cincy is very Black, with some pretty dicey neighborhoods in the core of the city.Never could understand the Republican tilt of the area, but then I don't know how it has been gerrymandered.

          I was born in Jackson County, in the southeastern hills.  Mostly people 3 generations away from Kentucky or W. Virginia, and very few Blacks.  I heard the term growing up as a child often enough.  Looking back it must have been a cultural legacy of their southern roots...because they had no daily interactions with people of color to ground their perceptions in experience.

          Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

          by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:07:07 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Cincinnati proper votes Democratic... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            dizzydean, Ahianne, Silvia Nightshade

            It's the "Greater Cincinnati Area" and Hamilton County that vote Republican.

          •  Columbus (0+ / 0-)

            is very segregated.  The north side, from the west to the east (north of 70 and in some areas this is a very clear line) are all middle-class to upper-class predominantly white communities.  I worked for a small IT consulting firm in Dublin (owner lived in Powell) and when I had to go down to one of our customers' locations on Livingston Ave near Alum Creek Drive, my boss freaked out and was trying to find some way to tell me to be careful of all the people of color in that neighborhood.  Dude didn't know that I grew up in a neighborhood like that so I'm not phased by it, but it was extremely uncomfortable to watch him fumble for words, to try and express his racism without seeming racist.

            "I don't want a unicorn. I want a fucking pegasus. And I want it to carry a flaming sword." -mahakali overdrive

            by Silvia Nightshade on Mon Dec 30, 2013 at 08:27:28 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  My experience in Columbus (8+ / 0-)

          I remember working with some folks there (in I.T.) on a contract that I was doing.  One of my white coworkers whispered to tell me that my African American coworker had a white wife, like that was a big scandal.  While living in the south, you see that sort of thing all the time so it was jarring to me that it had to be pointed out.

        •  I grew up in Ohio (11+ / 0-)

          and left in the 70s. My male parent (I have decided not to call him father for many reasons), a union steelworker, used several unflattering euphemisms for African-Americans, as well as other groups. I could never understand how a man with an Irish Catholic father could be so intolerant.

        •  Exactly Gooserock. (4+ / 0-)

          It is different. That was my point. Permission to be openly racist has been given by someone. Limbaugh maybe?

          The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.― Neil deGrasse Tyson

          by maggiejean on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 05:26:06 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Limbaugh is a consequence (3+ / 0-)

            of the courting of racists by the right wing.  He isn't the cause of racism.  Listening to him has changed silent racists into vocal ones and he has turned them nasty but it didn't start with him.

            Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

            by tikkun on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 07:46:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  the trend is not limited to the US (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Ahianne

            open right-wing racism is coming out in the open in several European countries, not yet tolerated as much as here in the US, because the media here, are just bullhorn and catalyst for more good reasons why it is ok to be "racial".

            Something has changed. And I think it started after 9/11 in 2001 and basically spread under the radar and hidden by the overall distrust and fear of terrorists.

            The economic crisis and the pain it causes in the white middle class intensifies it.

            The internet's online freedom of speech enables the spread of hate speech without repercussions. It's ok, you can play the racist however you wish and you can converse and build racist online communites worldwide.

            •  The racism in Europe is driven by the influx (0+ / 0-)

              of immigrants, mostly from Africa. In the US, people are not as racist as they were in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. That's why it is shocking to hear people express racist attitudes out loud now.

        •  Gooserock, I Agree (0+ / 0-)

          I can't say I'm sorry to see it happen.  The racism is not new, but racists have been given permission to put aside the socially required politeness that was, for a short time, a control on their mouths.  Frankly, I'd rather know who they are.  I'm hearing  the sophisticated and smooth voice of Nat King Cole behind me on my husband's radio.  Racists could never stand the advancement of talented black people, especially talented black men. Now they aren't afraid state their fury.  

          Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

          by tikkun on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 07:42:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Just this morning (0+ / 0-)

            I saw an (older, white) man driving down the highway with "IMPEACH THE BASTARD before he ruins what's left of our country" in very large vinyl letters across the back of his vehicle. The NRA bumper sticker made me realize he wasn't talking about Bush.  I'm thinking, "does he drive that thing to church? or to work?"  I mean, really, who does that, and continues to legitimately think themselves a decent human being?

            Since he's letting it all hang out like that, I guess that's good news for the rest of us, who now know what an idiot he is without having to waste time talking to him.

            By the way this was Massachusetts! So it's definitely not confined to the south.

            “No, Governor Romney, corporations are not people.” ~ my Senator Elizabeth Warren

            by Domestic Elf on Mon Dec 30, 2013 at 12:06:24 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I saw my first Calvin urinating on (0+ / 0-)

              OBAMA sticker the other day, which, I'm honestly surprised I haven't yet seen.

              I'm living in America, and in America you're on your own. America's not a country. It's just a business.

              by CFAmick on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 12:04:21 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  "ethnic bluecollars" = the majority population. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MPociask

          One of the attitudes that perpetuates racism, homophobia, etc. is the contempt shown by "progressives," "liberals" etc. toward working people.
             It's hard to persuade people of your POV when you obviously despise them.

      •  I went to High School in Los Angeles (9+ / 0-)

        there was one Black guy in my graduating class of 750 in 1974.  But then, Torrance is in southern Los Angeles County.

        Point being...people segregate themselves, racially and socio-economically, all across this country.  It's not just "hayseeds" in the corn and bible belts.

        Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

        by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 03:57:00 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I would strongly disagree (18+ / 0-)

          with any notions that blacks are segregated in housing by their own choice. Restrictive zoning effectively went under the table after the fair housing act, but it is alive and well.

          •  They are largely segregated by income (5+ / 0-)

            and what they can afford.  So am I, for that matter.  If you ever visit Los Angeles, take a drive through Baldwin Hills.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/...

            Believe it or not, even when income isn't a limiting factor, many Black people would rather live in a community that is majority Black.  I wouldn't say that makes them racist, though.

            Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

            by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:21:51 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's not true, Keith. (6+ / 0-)

              Black people would like to live in a decent house that they can afford just like everyone else, regardless of who lives next door. That's what the push for integration was about. There is a small faction of black separatists but they don't represent the majority.

              "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

              by GenXangster on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 05:37:51 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I don't think Baldwin Hills in inhabited (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                mimi, kyril, MPociask

                by a bunch of Black Separatists.  They are mostly doctors and other professionals.  They are affluent, and choose to live in a culturally (and even more importantly, socio-economically) homogenous neighborhood.  They don't want to live in Pacific Palisades, and they don't want to live in the Crenshaw District either.

                Everyone wishes to live in a decent house that they can afford.

                The less you can afford, the more you tend to have to live in crime ridden neighborhoods with a larger percentage of minority neighbors.  That is poverty at work...not red lining or racially restrictive zoning.  

                There are many nicer parts of Portland that I could be living in.  If I could afford to.  

                Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

                by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 06:10:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Moreland Hills (in NE Ohio) (5+ / 0-)

                  aren't necessarily black separatists, either. White flight is a much stronger force than blacks wanting to be around each other for cultural reasons. I've seen this happen in working/middle class neighborhoods that used to be white. Within two years, all my white playmates were gone, their parents having fled from the increasing blackness of their neighbors.

                  White Flight. We don't choose black neighbors. White people mostly just run away.

                  "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

                  by GenXangster on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 06:16:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  that is true, but what Keith930 describes, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    kyril

                    I believe, is the move of Afro-Americans, who can afford it, to nice neighborhoods of their own, wanting to live with neighbors they feel culturally more close to. This is a move where poverty is not at play, but deliberate emotional need to "be left in peace and a distance to and from the racist past".

                    If the white populations "flees", because too many "blacks" move in, it's another thing, racism and homophobia and fear of potential "ghettoization" of a neighborhood is at play.

                    If the black population is "moved out" by whites, because with whites comes the increase of real estate prices, so that poor Afro-Americans have to move out, poverty and economic and political power is at play and imposes segregation.

                •  I went to Baldwin Hills elementary school (7+ / 0-)

                  My parents moved to New York City for my father's new job. I learned a few dance moves from the black kids next door.

                  White adults were afraid that property values would drop (and who knows what else) when the % of black homeowners reached some imaginary level.

                  look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

                  by FishOutofWater on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 06:27:35 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Housing segregation is a function of housing (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    MPociask, FishOutofWater

                    policy from the Postwar years. The FHA and VA would not fund housing loans in integrated neighborhoods. The net effect was that government money funded suburban housing for whites but "projects" for blacks.
                       So, if African Americans moved to your neighborhood, it would make it difficult to sell your house.
                       That led to a real estate scam known as "block busting," in which a realtor would circulate a rumor that a black family had just purchased a house in a neighborhood. Then he would buy up houses at a low price and then resell to African Americans (who were desperate for decent housing) at a high price.
                       The segregation of middle class neighborhoods originated there.

            •  I would confirm that for Washington DC (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blueoasis, kyril

              most rich blacks live in a specific beautiful neighborhood of their own for the most part, not totally, but I would say it's 80% black and 20% white. It has developed natarally over the time. The neighborhood has been created in the early fifties. Many riche Afro-Americans moved from the South to that neighborhood originally.

          •  how does it work now? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            maggiejean

            Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

            by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:53:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Richard...you should read this diary (0+ / 0-)

            Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

            by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 05:06:58 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Agreed Richard Lyon. (5+ / 0-)

            Blacks are often segregated in housing because the larger white community wants them to be segregated and do all kinds of crazy stuff to make it so. See what happens when a black family moves into a "white" middle class neighborhood.

            The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.― Neil deGrasse Tyson

            by maggiejean on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 05:29:57 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I graduated from South Torrance High in 1972 (4+ / 0-)

          There was one black guy who came into the school when, as I recall, I was a senior.  In our PE class one of the kids asked the coach quite innocently, "are we going to have a good football team now?"  The coach responded to the kid, "What?  Are you an idiot?"  That little history has always struck me as a nugget of my and my neighborhood's upbringing:  mainly ignorant of the world outside, usually benignly ignorant. . .but I still remember many casual slurs that fortunately I don't have to be exposed to anymore.

          the fact that you're right is nothing more than interesting

          by Egg on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:19:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I went to West High (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            urnumbersix

            South High was, if possible, more White than West was.  I can remember seeing cars pulled over at night from time to time on Torrance Blvd, which was a main drag that connected East Torrance/Carson with Redondo Beach.  I saw many occasions of police pulling someone over for "driving while Black."  We even had an abbreviation for it as young teens...NIT.  (Nigger in Torrance)  I haven't lived there since the early 80's.  The demographics evolve...now there is a huge Asian population there.

            Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

            by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:28:31 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  12 black kids in my HS class of 530... (0+ / 0-)

            ....and 2 neighbors out of 30 or so on my street in suburban Pittsburgh.

            If you made enough money to live in the suburbs, you belonged here - the two black families were the owner of a lighting store and an engineer at the Westinghouse Bettis facility (which also employed the dad of one of my friends who happened to be black - I ended up with 2 of my closest friends being white and 2 being black).

            Racism definitely existed, but it was much more genteel, and our misbehavior (drinking) was typically done in our rec rooms, not the park, and done with just us, not parties with dozens of kids attending - so the cops weren't a huge problem.

            You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

            by varro on Mon Dec 30, 2013 at 12:36:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I went to school in UT (0+ / 0-)

          Uringbthe 70's. We had 2 Black kids elementary thru 12th.
          Things have changed now.
          I moved to CA in 89, and man was that a culteral shock.
          Even tho I was not raised LDS, Ifound I had picked up quite a bit of their attitudes from living in UT for 30 yrs.

          Now, crawl back into your  bible and drool about the good ol' days when God, the mass murderer, flooded the world and killed almost everyone including the animals. SORRY FOR THE TYPOS. Ziggy fingers on an Ipad :)

          by snoopydawg on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 07:29:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I taught at Leuzinger HS in Lawndale. (0+ / 0-)

          We had 18 White kids. In a student body of thousands.

          It's really Adolf Leuzinger High School. The campus had a half-dozen tennis courts that resembled Roman ruins. Hadn't been used in decades.

          All the other ethnic groups had their clubs, down to Samoans and Tongans and individual Central American countries. White kids, not so much.

          Suggestion: they could call themselves "Adolf's Kids."

          That went around like lightning. Got laughs everywhere. Whites as students are a curiosity in those environments. We also had 500 kids from Compton enrolled -- illegal immigrants escaping to Lawndale to avoid Red/Blue bullets.

      •  limbaugh and sons made it more 'acceptable' (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tobendaro, tikkun, varro

        it was and always be there but they put it right out there in the open and for the most part the left ignored it.

        if you can say it openly from 1200 radio stations without being challenged - that makes a huge difference. we've been letting them set the tone for the last 25 years.

        and many of those stations, maybe 30 - 40%, depend on college sports programs and their black athletes for community cred and ad revenue in exchange for a few bucks in licensing fees.

        This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

        by certainot on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 06:02:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Limbaugh, and Fox News, have (3+ / 0-)

          succeeded in creating white victimhood.  Whites feel "oppressed" by affirmative action and a librul media that shines a spotlight on public figures who express racist ideas or language.  These whites who feel victimized then retaliate with overt racism in public.  

          It's another reflection of the Fox News reality bubble, and very dangerous.  The same dynamic played out in Germany during the Great Depression, with Germans being duped into thinking they were the victims of some Jewish banker conspiracy.  I'm not saying that rednecks are about to start feeding blacks into gas chambers, only that when a majority is convinced of their victimhood, brutal racism is often the result.

          "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

          by Subterranean on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 07:16:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  it's not fox. it starts with our local rw radio st (0+ / 0-)

            station. fox is rw radio's little mutant bro - the visual whipped cream on the talk radio lie turd pie.

            fox is a red herring and distraction.

            they've got nothing without rw radio and the left gives it to them on a platter because they'd rather listen to a scratched barry manilow cd from under the seat than  listen to what's been short circuiting democracy for the last 25 years.

            This is a list of 76 universities for Rush Limbaugh that endorse global warming denial, racism, sexism, and GOP lies by broadcasting sports on over 170 Limbaugh radio stations.

            by certainot on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 10:35:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  Hip hop culture has normalized "nigga" for (7+ / 0-)

      young people, which makes bigots think it's okay to bring back the e-r version. Dick Gregory was once asked why white folks can't use the N-word. He said "because they haven't learned how to say it nice yet". And yes, right-wingers keep pushing that "why can't whites say it"? bullshit, when they know damn well why.

      I never liked you and I always will.

      by Ray Blake on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 03:52:08 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I guess that's why I can't use the words "bitch" (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        white blitz

        "ho" or "muthafucka", then...I haven't learned how to say them nicely.

        Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

        by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:09:35 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Must be. There IS a context in which (0+ / 0-)

          you could say all of those things nicely to the right person. "Bitch" has changed meaning completely in recent years. Young white dudes will refer to their best friends as "my bitches". If you recall, Shaft was given high praise for being a "bad muthafucka". "Ho" is a bit trickier, but I've heard high school kids, male and female, use the term "bros 'n hoes" or "chicks 'n dicks".

          I never liked you and I always will.

          by Ray Blake on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:25:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  This is true. (0+ / 0-)

        I've heard white girls call each other nigga without a hint of irony or shame.

    •  I don't listen to Right Wing Radio, but my uncle (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      wenchacha, nextstep, Bugsby, white blitz

      does, and he lives in Ohio.  I've never heard the word "nigger" on a RW talk radio show, albeit my exposure is somewhat limited.

      I hear it all the time, though, on the Comedy Network, and in what  can be called popular urban culture.  So I tend to be careful pointing fingers at who or what is responsible for the word's common usage.

      I wish a writer along the lines of Studs Terkel would write a book on race...just like Hard times or Working.  An anthology of anecdotes of regular people talking about their attitudes about race and what formed their attitudes.

      How much is inherited?  How much is absorbed from the culture around you?  How much is personal experience?

      To the extent that most public discussions about race are not particularly honest, due to the charged nature of the topic, I find them less than useful.

      Through early morning fog I see visions of the things to be the pains that are withheld for me I realize and I can see...

      by Keith930 on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 03:52:34 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  The primary winger talk hosts (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Keith930, Pi Li

        Limbaugh, Hannity, Levin, et al would never use the N-word on the air or allow their callers to use it either. I don't know how we could blame them for its expanded use.

        "let's talk about that"

        by VClib on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 03:58:27 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Dog whistles are only for the radio public. . . (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          dizzydean, poco, doroma, urnumbersix, JVolvo

          . . .rabid listeners know how to translate "urban"

          the fact that you're right is nothing more than interesting

          by Egg on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:22:11 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Because they convince their white listeners (0+ / 0-)

          that they are the victims of reverse racism.  Limbaugh et. al. scapegoat minorities, especially blacks, for most of America's problems, making it clear to loyal listeners that it is the blacks who are taking his tax money, his job, his country, all as a sort of revenge.  "Slavery reparations" is a common code for the blacks are comin' to GET YA!  Rush doesn't have to say the n-word, all he has to do is gin up anger at blacks, and his rabid listeners do the rest.

          "When I was an alien, cultures weren't opinions" ~ Kurt Cobain, Territorial Pissings

          by Subterranean on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 07:25:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Limbaugh et al don't convince whites that they (0+ / 0-)

            are victims of reverse racism. They already believe that. The radio guys just reinforce that belief.
               I think that in a culture that is so materialistic and so focused on money and status, those who don't have it want to blame somebody.
               The resentment is not just directed at ethnic minorities. It is aimed at the wealthier and more educated.
             

      •  I never use the "f" word, (22+ / 0-)

        any of the "q" words or anything to but "gay" or "homosexual", "lesbian", "bisexual" or "transsexual" or "transgender to refer to the LGBT community.

        I don't care how many gays use "q" or "d" or "f", it's none of my business. I have no business correcting an LGBT person on the slurs they use with each other. LGBT folks using those words on EACH OTHER is not what's perpetrating the hate against them. I wouldn't be caught dead arguing the use of the "f" word by other GAYS when so much else is happening to the gay community that needs attention. I wouldn't be caught dead blaming gays for worsening their own persecution just because some of them use the same slurs that are used against them whether in jest or solidarity or just plain hostility.

        That's what it feels like for people white, black or otherwise to turn the spout of blame on the oppressed because of a slur they have appropriated and used to express solidarity. I'm so sick of hearing "well blacks use the nword so.....". As if I can be responsible for what 30 million black people do with their own mouths. As if I deserve the discrimination railed against me because of some shit A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BLACK PERSON says out of their mouth. I can't control 30 million people. That tree falls in the forest outside of the earshot of white people so much, it hardly exists. Until we start rappin and rhyming about our horrible inner city lives. They never hear that we're getting killed out here, all they hear is the nword. And they point to it; "Ah, see that's why you're getting killed. Just pull up your pants, stop saying nword and everything will be wonderful! I bet you never thought of that!" smh

        What I can control is how I support the oppressed outside of my own group. I can say nword 47 times a day and nobody would hear it but another black person and they would have said it back to me 147 times, nobody would know and everything would be fine. It's been like that for hundreds of years. The minute that word appears on a record or in a movie dialog, all hell breaks loose and everyone's concerned.

        What I'm not gonna say is "f" to a gay man. That's all we need to be concerned about; offending OTHERS. Stay in your lane. If you're Irish and you and your Irish friends like to call each other "M" words, I have nothing to say or do with it. But I'M not gonna argue that I should also be allowed to say it just because they said it in earshot of me.

        That's like justifying the attack and gang rape of a woman because she jiggled her boobs. "You showed your tits, you must have wanted them touched." It's really creepy, you guys.

        "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

        by GenXangster on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 05:00:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  THIS.ALL.DAY. (6+ / 0-)

          I can only rec this once.

          But if I could, I would rec it one million times.

          Thank you.

        •  Perfect (10+ / 0-)

          GF and I call each other "D" sometimes, jokingly. Like, if I fix something in the house, she'll say "I am so glad you can dyke out like that."

          And I sometimes call my brother a fag.

          When other people complain that they don't "get" to use a word, I remind them that it's not a freakin' privilege. It's part of a culture. I can talk shit about my family but you can't.

          And why whites get so incensed that they can't use the N word baffles me. I've never wanted to use it. It makes me sick to hear it.

          But I don't give a fuck when on AA says it to another.

          P.S. I am not a crackpot.

          by BoiseBlue on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 05:33:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, yes, yes! (9+ / 0-)

            "Why would you WANT to say the n-word?" is my question to people who insist they should be able to use it too.  Good grief.  How could a person's life be so freaking complete that the ONLY THING MISSING is the sanctioned use of a racially hurtful slur?  I can thing of a zillion other things I'd rather accomplish than to have that "right."  

            Ugh!  

            "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle stand like a rock." Attributed to T. Jefferson

            by koosah on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 06:05:01 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hmm (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Chitown Kev, GenXangster

            I am a gay man and have never used the word fag and do not tolerate its use in my presence.  I never heard dyke as a kid, so it did not have the same history for me.  Lesbo was the derogatory term used in my world.  

            I don't agree with the personal contextualization of words.  If a word is offensive to me, I do not use and do not suffer others using it.  The linguistic fascism that dictates that I can use a word, but others can't, is counter-intuitive to me.  If the word offends because it is demeaning, it simply cannot shed that meaning when used by the oppressed group.  That is not to say that a word cannot be reclaimed, as the word queer has done (particularly in academia).  But the important distinction to note is that the reclaiming of the word queer does not carry the same- it's okay for me, but not for you- tendency that is applied to other words.  In short, you can't have it both ways.

            •  Fair enough. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              orestes1963

              But a gay man saying it to another gay man? I will not get involved.

              There's no way you can control what millions of other homosexuals do or say. My argument is that you should not be targeted for insults or persecution just because other homosexuals have appropriated that word. Your right to be left alone and unharrassed shouldn't ever depend on what other gays have done or said.

              "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

              by GenXangster on Mon Dec 30, 2013 at 09:10:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GenXangster

                I cannot control what anyone else says.  I have no desire to do that even if I could.  I can only control what I will tolerate in my presence.  I do not condone anyone being targeted for insults or persecution; I hope my comment did not promote that inference.

                I have to say that I have never heard gay men calling each other faggot, except in a derogatory manner.  Are you hearing this term being used endearingly[sic]?

          •  Absolutely (0+ / 0-)

            My best male friend (except perhaps relatives) is gay. I won't call him by any derogated names, but I feel perfectly comfortable using them in puns/double entendres/and so on. And get them right back redoubled.

        •  The use of a word to describe... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GenXangster

          ...people attracted to the same sex has turned upside down among younger people.

          Growing up, (late 70s through 80s) "gay" was an insult; "queer" meant "odd, quirky, unusual".  "Queer" was never used as an insult to irritate straight kids by impugning their masculinity.

          I suppose it's like "B/black" replacing "Negro" as a neutral term in the 1960s...

          You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

          by varro on Mon Dec 30, 2013 at 12:49:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  My experience is different (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            GenXangster, varro

            Gay is more an insult today than it was in the 70's/80's.  Sure, in those times gay was used to malign by identifying someone as gay, which was always bad through high school age.  But today gay is used derisively in a broader manner.  Queer was used synonymously with gay to denote someone who was homosexual (a word I also don't like because of its use as a clincial disorder).    

            •  "Gay" was a catch-all insult in middle school... (0+ / 0-)

              ...in the early 1980s, but it usually meant "stupid", not "unmasculine" or "homosexual".

              Jimbo, after Nelson kissed Lisa: "You kissed a girl!  That is so gay!"

              You can't spell "Dianne Feinstein" without "NSA".

              by varro on Mon Dec 30, 2013 at 06:12:32 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

    •  My (black) daughter (4+ / 0-)

      goes to jr. high in one of those red towns that surround Columbus. She tells me about jr. high school Mitt Romney fans and "conservative" kids. I just shake my head. When did 13 year olds become so politically polarized and so political period?

      I guess the good news is that those kids are not so influential as they'd like to be and not so numerous. From my daughter's POV, they aren't necessarily popular, they are outnumbered about 8 to 1 and nobody really listens. My kid happens to be pretty well adjusted socially, somewhat popular and well liked and she doesn't seem to have any major problems with race harassment so it's just the parents at this point. Next year in high school, about half of them will have started to rebel and will probably become goths or emo kids, I'm guessing. lol

      "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

      by GenXangster on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 04:34:13 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  identity politics, politics as identity (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GenXangster, Geenius at Wrok

        "When did 13 year olds become so politically polarized and so political period?"

        When their parents made their political affinity part of their social identity.

        And that works on both sides, Democrats as well as Republicans. It's one of the consequences political polarization taking over the social scene.  

        And that can go much further. I know at least one European country that has been so polarized for decades that political affiliation is the overarching social denominator. There were not only red and black states, there were red and black cities, red and black clubs, red and black banks, red and black insurance companies, construction companies, you name it.

        European integration has smudged that out a little in recent years, but the core structures are still there today.

        •  Germany? Austria? nt (0+ / 0-)

          "The great lie of democracy, its essential paradox, is that democracy is the first to be sacrificed when its security is at risk. Every state is totalitarian at heart; there are no ends to the cruelty it will go to to protect itself." -- Ian McDonald

          by Geenius at Wrok on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 08:33:22 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Is your daughter... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        GenXangster

        a fan of President Obama?

        •  She is a complex political creature. (0+ / 0-)

          My daughter loves to shoot guns.

          As far as Obama goes, she accepts that such a thing as a black president as something that is due and the bad times are mainly in the past, the same way I took for granted that I had white kids to play with in the 80s.

          "It's not enough to acknowledge privilege. You have to resist." -soothsayer

          by GenXangster on Sun Dec 29, 2013 at 06:58:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  I lived in Ohio during the 1960s. At that time, (0+ / 0-)

      the people and police were much more racist and hostile to "hippies" than in laid back rural Florida where I moved in the early 70s. I did have some run ins with Klan types in Florida, but by and large there wasn't the working class anger that permeated Ohio, and race relations were more paternalistic than hostile.

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