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View Diary: Chris Hedges: Overthrow the Speculators (101 comments)

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  •  Do people forget that during that apparent (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Mikey, Leftleaner

    golden age of the rule of law certain Americans were considered property by law, women couldn't vote etc?

    I understand we love hyperbole, but nothing says #uppermiddleclasswhiteproblems like "man, we need to go back to the 1700's where we had some good laws in this country!"

    When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

    by PhillyJeff on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 08:54:35 AM PST

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    •  Chill (5+ / 0-)

      Cut the straw man's argument and consider a pill for humor deficiency.

      Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid. You step out of line, the man come and take you away. - S. Stills

      by ask on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 09:07:16 AM PST

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    •  Only you siad 'go back to 17th C, entire' (3+ / 0-)
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      ask, LeftOverAmerica, Calamity Jean

      The point is speculation was taken as a crime; now it's lauded.

      It was a crime for good reason.


      Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

      by Jim P on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 10:32:25 AM PST

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      •  agree (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Jim P, Calamity Jean

        just as usury was punishable by death for close to a thousand years.  Yet now usury and speculation is basically the foundation of our economy.  Of course none of this ends well, how can it.

        •  Sure speculation was a crime (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Leftleaner

          Assisting a piece of human property to escape from his rightful master was also a crime.

          Pining for the old days is a conservative trait - it's not progressive.

          I don't like speculators either, but suggesting they be strung up and killed (as black people were during the time when those "awesome" laws existed) is just stupid hyperbole. I'm sorry, but it is.

          It's not a strawman argument - people are directly saying "gee American law was great in the 1700's, lets get back to those days."

          When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

          by PhillyJeff on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 12:09:24 PM PST

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          •  Really? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            nota bene, ChemBob, Calamity Jean
            It's not a strawman argument - people are directly saying "gee American law was great in the 1700's, lets get back to those days."
            Who said that in this thread?

            Your post is pretty much the definition of a straw man's argument. Maybe you should look it up.

            Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid. You step out of line, the man come and take you away. - S. Stills

            by ask on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 12:27:19 PM PST

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            •  What was said is this (0+ / 0-)
              the Rule of Law functioned much better in the 17th century...
              The point Jeff is making is that this wonderful rule of law worked for white Protestant males.  Not so well for any other group. Blacks were slaves, women were property, Indians were massacred, all according to this wonderful "rule of law".  

              Be bold. Be courageous. Americans are counting on you. Gabby Giffords.

              by Leftleaner on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 12:54:39 PM PST

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              •  A totally (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LeftOverAmerica, Jim P, Calamity Jean

                unnecessary diversion is what it was. The subject of the diary is what was responded to. And the blockquote included in the reply would have made it even more clear. I don't think anyone here wants to return to the legal system of the 17th century.

                I cannot vouch for the veracity of Hedges' statement,

                Speculation in the 17th century was a crime. Speculators were hanged.
                but if true, it is an interesting contrast to the current AG's attitude that some finance institutions are too big to fail, thus too big to prosecute.

                How difficult was it to get that, given the context?

                Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid. You step out of line, the man come and take you away. - S. Stills

                by ask on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 01:15:42 PM PST

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                •  And as I pointed out (0+ / 0-)
                  but if true, it is an interesting contrast to the current AG's attitude that some finance institutions are too big to fail, thus too big to prosecute.
                  What is the difference between that and saying "I cannot vouch for the veracity of xxx's statement that owning persons was legal, but if true isn't an interesting contrast to the current AG's attitude that minorities should get equal rights?"

                  It's totally irrelevant. I really do not care what the laws were during a time (before the formation of the US mind you so we're not even talking US law) when blacks, women, Native Americans etc were treated horrifically any more than I care what the laws were during Apartheid South Africa, Soviet Russia, Ancient Greece or Gondar from Lord of the Rings.

                  When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

                  by PhillyJeff on Wed Jan 01, 2014 at 12:01:22 PM PST

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                  •  Yawn (0+ / 0-)

                    be as obtuse as you want, you have every right.

                    Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid. You step out of line, the man come and take you away. - S. Stills

                    by ask on Wed Jan 01, 2014 at 02:03:40 PM PST

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          •  Nobody's pining for the old days. Not sure (0+ / 0-)

            how pointing out one thing from the old days would equal wanting every thing back.

            But what about speculation, which you might have noticed is the point of the quote, indeed Hedges article, and this diary?

            Do you think it should be allowed to continue; do you think people in the Real World, and localities, and States should be able to improve their lives without paying interest to private bankers?


            Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

            by Jim P on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 04:32:11 PM PST

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            •  Hedges himself is promoting punishments (0+ / 0-)

              in 17th century law. The death penalty for speculators is ridiculous, pointless hyperbole anyway. I'm sure we could get a few chants of "kill all the lawyers" but what's the point? Couldn't we just have a reasoned conversation about how speculation is bad without advocating killing people?

              I'm directly responding to a comment that said :

              the Rule of Law functioned much better in the 17th century...
              No, the rule of law did not function better in the 17th century for reasons I just described.

              If you're a white male in this country you probably think it did because you never had to worry about having your ancient land stolen from you or had to worry about being strung up on a tree for supposedly leering at a white woman.

              I'll take today's justice system, however flawed, over that of the 17th century.

              Please explain how it's a strawman or how it's distracting from the argument when I"m commenting on basically the one thing the diarist thinks is most important in the entire article.

              When we stop putting leaders from the past up on pedestals and ignoring their flaws, we can start seeing our present leaders for what they really are.

              by PhillyJeff on Wed Jan 01, 2014 at 11:57:19 AM PST

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    •  oh, bullshit (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim P

      don't willfully miss the point.

      Forget about ask, do you genuinely think that was Hedges' intention? To advocate for a return to 18th century legal principles? Fucking please.

      You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

      by nota bene on Tue Dec 31, 2013 at 02:25:26 PM PST

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