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View Diary: An Open Letter to The Occupy Wall Street Movement: You Were Right All Along (160 comments)

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  •  OWS put income inequality out in the open - HR (16+ / 0-)

    the income inequality is as bad as it was before the great depression

    this country was founded in opposition to monarchy

    that is what we now have

    the monarchy is back

    have you noticed that National Security trumps the constitution?

    have you noticed that everyone is now being spied on?

    have you noticed that banksters who are criminals are not being prosecuted?

    OWS was a grass roots effort that opened up the space for opposition and got people to demonstrate in the public space which has been reduced more and more

    •  I wasn't knocking OWS (7+ / 0-)

      I was knocking Ray's repetitive nonsense.

      I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

      by jbou on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 02:08:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're welcome to disagree, but feel free to take (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ray Pensador, angel d, aliasalias

        Markos' advice to IGNORE once you do, even if you DON'T like Rays views. This was a substantive diary, and not only repetitive. Stop trolling just because you don't like progressive views.

        "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

        by Kombema on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 07:24:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am a progressive (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hey338Too, erratic, poco

          What I don't find appealing is the nonsense that Ray repeats over and over again about the corporate conspiracies and the NSA. There's not much of a connection between the greed on Wall Street and what is happening at the NSA. Now I know the young protester folks like to think that they're important enough to be spied on by the NSA but they're not. This ain't J Edger and his nonsense.

          We could start with a simple freaking issue like raising the capital gains taxes. It goes after Wall Street and the rich families who are hoarding money that is causing our economy to stagnate. I know it is not as glamorous as standing in a park and holding a clever sign but It'll probably be more effective.

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 08:01:58 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Good grief, jbou (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            aliasalias, Ray Pensador, migo

            he provided links that proved OWS was spied on.
            And I havevread many of them on other sites.
            The FBI, SWATraided some leaders houses and took their computers.
            You are very wrong stating they weren't spied on.
            Go read the links provided and learn the truth.
            Or don't let the facts get in your way of disrupting another diary.

            Now, crawl back into your  bible and drool about the good ol' days when God, the mass murderer, flooded the world and killed almost everyone including the animals. SORRY FOR THE TYPOS. Ziggy fingers on an Ipad :)

            by snoopydawg on Fri Jan 03, 2014 at 10:38:52 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  what jbou said was (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              serendipityisabitch, poco

              "the young protester folks like to think that they're important enough to be spied on by the NSA"

              •  The NSA spying exists (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ray Pensador

                We don't know entirely know whom are specific targets, besides generally nearly everyone.

                "the young protester folks like to think that they're important enough to be spied on by the NSA"
                We know they are important enough to be infiltrated and designated as a terrorist group... and to spend enormous resources cracking down on the movement. Why wouldn't the NSA spy on them? It seems more reasonable to assume they do, than not.

                The security apparatus certainly keeps track of public mass revolt movements, and Occupy certainly had some inclination towards that. And the security state certainly has models and contingency plans to deal with the consequences of mass starvation, unrest, massive downturns of the economy.

                OWS probably fit into those models, and they would certainly have used the opportunity, at the very least, to study dissident group behavior, to test their models and contingency plans. This is the massive US intelligence apparatus we're talking about, replete with entire cities of analysts. You think they won't use that enormous investment, and take it out on a test drive every chance they get?

                To assume they just ignore these genesis movements (which could grow into something even larger -- although Occupy being in most major and a lot of minor cities wasn't exactly small!) would be very naive.

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sat Jan 04, 2014 at 02:44:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Would you say that those arguments are somehow (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ZhenRen

                  trying to minimize the issue, to undermine those who express concern about the dangers of a total information awareness surveillance system in the hands of corporate spy networks?

                  It seems to me that way.  What do you think?

                  •  Well, just analyze the comment: (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ray Pensador
                    "the young protester folks like to think that they're important enough to be spied on by the NSA"
                    Look at the way this is phrased. Obviously, the message here is that Occupy was about as important as a group of gnats.

                    And yet, several books, a large amount of essays, loads of news reports, endless discussion, has been instigated by the movement, not to mention an entire new narrative that still continues to this day.

                    I think what this nay saying boils down to is a fight about basic world views, involving one which is content to stick within the status quo, consisting of mostly supporting it or trying to make small changes within the existing structure, or on the other hand a more sweeping form of change.

                    Graeber nails the disagreement by describing most of the criticisms as having one basic underlying premise: People wanted Occupy to work within the electoral system, by advancing legislation and candidates, but Occupy rejected this, and thus rejected their world view: It attacked the entire system as a failure.

                    That's really what this all boils down to, and in fact, much of this is at the root of why they attack you. You're pulling out the rug from the whole standard operating principle of dkos by calling for more than bandaid solutions.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sat Jan 04, 2014 at 03:43:27 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Gotta do some work. n/t (0+ / 0-)

                      "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                      by ZhenRen on Sat Jan 04, 2014 at 03:43:48 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Thought so. It seems obvious, doesn't it? n/t (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ZhenRen
                      •  Basically (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Ray Pensador

                        They are defending the system. Thus, if you listen to their narrative, the system didn't fail, Occupy failed instead, by not working within the existing structure. But Occupiers rejected the structure as not worthy of support.

                        So, they have to put down Occupy, rather than let Occupy succeed in getting the statement to stick, because it criticized the entire process that they still believe in and support. In effect, it criticized them.

                        And it wouldn't surprise me that some of the critics are acting on instinct, rather than having a fully conscious basis for their criticism. They know somewhere in the recesses of their consciousness that these "self-important" dissident gnats, these Occupiers, are substantially criticizing the staidness, the inside-the-groove mentality, the comfortable well-worn roles and long-established functions and assumptions of party politics, and the complicity of the system's status quo supporters.

                        The same thing happened in the '60s, and this attitude was called an "establishment" attitude.

                        So, look at the defensiveness: People come up with arguments like "we all went through this before" and "cointelpro!" and "this ain't nuthin', you should have seen the FBI back in the day!" and they attack the "lack of leadership," (which is hogwash, Occupy had/has plenty of leaders, they simply weren't anointed with absolute positions of immutable authority), or they attack the lack of an agenda (which is also nonsense, they just wanted a less sweeping agenda than "the entire system is broken, let's find an entirely new way of organizing", one which narrowed its focus to pathetically cementing back together a crumbling system).

                        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                        by ZhenRen on Sat Jan 04, 2014 at 04:36:33 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  So then we're talking about system apologists? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          ZhenRen

                          I've been doing a lot of reading about previous struggles.

                          It's an interesting phenomenon.  It seems you're very versed in the history of previous social struggles and would probably agree with this observation...

                          A very large segment of the oppressed population somehow comes to accept and embrace the narrative that's handed down from their oppressors.  It happens in every era when it comes to the struggle for social justice.

                          But eventually many come around and join the movement once they run out of justifications in the face of rampant corruption and oppression.

                •  Hi Zhenren! (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  6412093

                  I do agree that NSA spying exists. I missed the part when OWS was designated a terrorist group - do you have a link?

                  As to the rest of your comment, there's nothing wrong with speculation, but it's not proof of anything.

                  •  It was labeled and treated as a "terrorist threat" (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Ray Pensador

                    but not officially a terrorist organization. Take whatever comfort that difference means to you, as you sit in your armchair at home, rather than facing a police line.

                    When an organization is perceived as a "terrorist threat" are you naive enough to think the US security apparatus would simply sit on its hands, and not use its resources? Remember, we're talking about the security madness of post-9/11 America, where Presidents' legacies are based on "keeping America safe" and are considered failures if they don't act on every scant detail of information they can get their hands on.

                    Frankly, it really doesn't matter to me which particular department of the mammoth security state, as identified which alphabetized acronym of that security state, was used. That's just a red herring argument. A diversion or digression. I've no reason to pretend that the state wouldn't use whichever instrument or technology that got the job done. That's why they spend the money on these tools, after all. Which exact spy tool was involved hardly matters.

                    Let's turn this around: If the US intelligence apparatus thought of OWS as a threat to Wall Street (oh, horrors!), and thought OWS might hack into, or block, or in some way stop trading (you have to think like these intelligence types do, and they've made it clear they were using their terrorist resources to investigate), then what measures would they NOT be willing to take to stop OWS? How disinterested would they be? I wonder if people represented by your attitude haven't talked themselves into such a dismissive attitude of OWS' relative importance that you project that attitude onto the US intelligence authorities.

                    But look at the difference: Most conventional people on the left who were ho-hum about Occupy didn't (thank goodness) think Occupy was a terrorist threat. But, on the other hand, the intelligence authorities did!

                    Chew on that thought for awhile, before you think your notion that they wouldn't go as far as they thought was necessary to track Occupy's doings.

                    It is one thing to call out unreasonable speculation, but quite another to allow oneself to be deluded by one's own naive projections.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sat Jan 04, 2014 at 05:13:22 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

            •  These folks are very disciplined and systematic (0+ / 0-)

              with the dissembling. It is amazing to see it happen in real-time.

        •  And you are the arbiter of progressive views?... (0+ / 0-)

          Who appointed you as the voice of "progressives"? Seriously, get over yourself.

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