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View Diary: Pope Francis Packs the Vatican with Vulture Capitalists (142 comments)

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  •  I think that a Pope who says (8+ / 0-)

    "Who am I to judge?" hardly has demonstrated a claim to be the

    sole arbiter of God's will for the human race.

    If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

    by marykk on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 08:14:07 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Wow... you think that line wiped out (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle

      the whole history and resume' of the pope of the catholic church?  Man, you are a PR manager's dream!

    •  Yet he repeats and repeats his opposition to same (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      SeaTurtle

      sex marriage. Why? Because, as pope, he is the sole arbiter of God's will for the human race.

      •  Horsefeathers (0+ / 0-)

        and the CT stuff is getting really, really old.  

        If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

        by marykk on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 05:46:52 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  marykk, I have read your dismissive (0+ / 0-)

          responses in many diaries of this kind and what can I say?

          Your level of contribution is usually at the level of

          Horsefeathers
          Never once have I heard you discuss facts, information, etc, you just run screaming across a diary, like Chicken Little,

          "This is CT, this is CT, this is CT...."

          OH Kay?

          and yes, I agree:

          and the CT stuff is getting really, really old.  

          We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

          by SeaTurtle on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 07:31:25 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Oh, I am slain! (0+ / 0-)

            My original comment in this thread raised a substantive challenge to the proposition that the pope considers himself to be the sole arbiter of human conduct. Other than repeating the charge the OP has done nothing to produce a substantive answer.  The question is valid even tough it doesn't carry on all day.

            If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

            by marykk on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 07:50:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  substantive? (0+ / 0-)
              I think that a Pope who says (8+ / 0-)
              "Who am I to judge?" hardly has demonstrated a claim to be the

              sole arbiter of God's will for the human race.

              That is just opinion based on lack of facts and information.  People tried to patiently explain to you the whole notion of papal infallibility down the thread, but you didn't get it.

              The papacy is the last remaining absolute monarchy and the pope and the theologians consider him to be the one who has the last word for the xch.  And then they extend that by saying that the xch is the true xch and that everything else is false, ergo in their eyes, he is the sole arbiter for the human race.

              His comment "Who am I to judge?"  was a PASTORAL comment, intending to suggest that people be approached with more tact, not that homosexuality is now suddenly ok with him.  Go and read the Guardian's articles on his statements about homosexuality and you will find something much more nuanced.

              So, this is a great example of your lack of knowledge and your confusing ungrounded opinion as fact or information.  Your question is not valid because it is based on misinformation and misunderstanding of information.

              We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

              by SeaTurtle on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 08:00:04 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Given that there have only been two (0+ / 0-)

                Ex Cathedra pronouncements, one each in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, neither by this pope, your rant about infallibility is duly noted.

                If you think you're too small to be effective, you've never been in the dark with a mosquito.

                by marykk on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 02:41:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  there is a difference between actual (0+ / 0-)

                  infallible papal pronouncements and the ROLE of the pope as 'moral and absolute arbiter' - the latter which is supported by his infallible ROLE.

                  Here are some quotes about the world wide primacy of the pope, which is about his infallible ROLE:

                  Inasmuch as the Church is a group of human beings called to carry out in history God's plan for the salvation of the world, power in her appears as an indispensable requirement of mission. Nevertheless, the analogical value of the language used allows power to be conceived in the sense provided by Jesus' maxim on "power in order to serve" and by the Gospel idea of the pastoral leader. The power required by the mission of Peter and his successors is identified with this authoritative leadership guaranteed of divine assistance, which Jesus himself called the ministry (service) of a shepherd.

                  Having said that, we can reread the definition of the Council of Florence (1439), which stated: "We define that the Holy Apostolic See--and the Roman Pontiff--has primacy over the whole world, and that the same Roman Pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, prince of the apostles and true Vicar of Christ, head of the whole Church, and father and teacher of all Christians, and that upon him, in blessed Peter, our Lord Jesus Christ conferred the full power of shepherding, ruling and governing the universal Church, as is also stated in the acts of the ecumenical councils and the sacred canons" (DS 1307).

                  and
                  For its part, Vatican I (1870) cited the Council of Florence's definition (cf. DS 3060) and, after mentioning the Gospel texts (Jn 1:42; Mt 16:16f.; Jn 21:15f.), expresses the meaning of this power in further detail. The Roman Pontiff "does not only have the office of inspection and direction," but enjoys "full and supreme power of jurisdiction, not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and governance of the Church dispersed throughout the world" (DS 3064).
                  and
                  In this sense Vatican II speaks of the Bishop of Rome as "pastor of the entire Church," having "full, supreme and universal power" (LG 22). That power is "primacy over all, both pastors and faithful" (LG 22). "The individual bishops, insofar as their own discharge of their duty permits, are obliged to enter into a community of work among themselves and with the Successor of Peter, upon whom was imposed in a special way the great duty of spreading the Christian name" (LG 23).
                  the above quotes are from the horse's mouth

                  and since the church believes that 'outside the church there is  no salvation, ergo, the pope is arbiter for the whole world:

                  “Outside the Church there is no salvation” (extra ecclesiam nulla salus) is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:

                  “There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
                  “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
                  “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
                  But man, following the example of his natural father, Adam, often disobeys the authority of God. The fact that the doctrine had to be thrice defined itself proves the Church’s paternal solicitude in correcting her erring children who fall into indifferentism. The first goal of Saint Benedict Center’s doctrinal Crusade is to defend this doctrine. We present here a selection of various articles written for that end.

                  linky for above quote

                  and

                  Magisterial Pronouncements

                  Throughout the history of the Church, the Magisterium has accepted and synthesized these teachings. Recognizing that God will judge our hearts according to the gifts we have received, invincible ignorance — that is, ignorance which cannot be overcome by ordinary means — tempers divine justice. Those who have knowledge of the truth are expected to accept it. Those who have not been given this gift will be judged according to the law written on their hearts. Two noteworthy examples of this position are found in Pope Boniface VIII’s bull Unam Sanctam and Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore.

                  Boniface VIII wrote concerning the nature of the Church and the supremacy of the Pope. He did not write concerning the damnation of those who have never heard the Gospel. After expressing the truth that there is only one Lord, one faith, one Baptism and one Church, he explained that supreme authority of the Pope is both temporal and spiritual. He then ended by declaring: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce, that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." This is not a statement demanding that everyone know the Pope’s supremacy to be saved, but rather is a truthful claim that the Pope has authority from God as the legitimate successor of St. Peter, to whom Our Lord entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

                  read and enjoy

                  Get it?

                  We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

                  by SeaTurtle on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 04:45:28 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  This is how this institution has survived... (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    SeaTurtle

                    It snowed people with volumes and volumes of nonsense and gibberish and then mowed over them when they wouldn't buy it.   Isn't that a kind of Gish Galloping?

                    •  that is a good description, ft (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Fishtroller01

                      I would take it one step further, I think that the rcxch has created a closed system of logic, so that once you buy into certain fundamental premises, you are eternally caught in a house of mirrors and can't find your way out.  Nor can you find your way back to the starting point.

                      The regrettable thing is that religious institutions could have the ability to help mobilize people towards the good they claim to represent, such as part of the church who supported  civil rights.  The hierarchy has for the most part always been like any other absolute monarchy, corrupted absolutely.  However, there have been some soldiers in the xch who have done good imo.

                      When I think of how much good it would do if the rcxch suddenly call 'foul' on all the climate denying and called on the world govts to save this planet, it saddens me and angers me that they are not using their influence for something truly constructive rather than their undying obssessions with who is in your bedroom doing what and what women do with their bodies.

                      Truth be told, ft, I just don't get how there are so many on DK who can't see the manipulation.  But I suppose religious brainwashing is very very powerful.

                      Take Care.

                      We Must DISARM THE NRA The next life you save may be ONE OF YOUR OWN!

                      by SeaTurtle on Tue Jan 07, 2014 at 10:38:38 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh it IS very powerful... took me 20 years (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        SeaTurtle

                        to think my way out of it!  I like the house of mirrors analogy.

                        Protestants didn't fare much better in history.  They said they made a break from the RCC and its corruptions and then went on to invent many of their own.  Plus they still say the Nicene creed, so they might as well have stayed in the flock.  Of course then Martin Luther wouldn't have had the chance to make himself into a little pope, go after the Jews and write stuff that Hitler hung his hat on.

                        See, god DID have a plan after all!

                        Good people with good hearts do good things... no religion needed at all for that to happen!

                        Happy New Year!

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