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View Diary: A gay man discusses his sexual identity (148 comments)

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  •  Is it an distinctly separate (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    weck, FloridaSNMOM, jessical, wader, bastrop

    variation or is it a bridge over which some people can cross back and forth?

    •  Sexual Orientation. (6+ / 0-)

      I do not think that the great majority of people can do that of their own free will (remember we are talking about orientation, not just having sex). Perhaps there are some, but I have NEVER met any that I know of. If so, my guess is that it is a extremely few (and quite rare). Having said that, I believe the science shows that some people (just a very few) do experience changes in sexual orientation, but not of their own choice, over extended periods of time.

      •  I have met them. (6+ / 0-)

        In this very diary Boise Blue is reporting such experiences in a clear and articulate manner.

        The whole business of research about the incidence of different forms of sexual identity is problematic. The studies that have been done are few in number, spread over a very long span time and have various problems in methodology.

        •  I don't know Boise Blue (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dave in Northridge, orestes1963

          well enough to determine if I agree with him that his sexual orientation changes, although I believe that he is telling the truth about it as well as he knows. I'm not sure that it matters anyway ... that would just be ONE.

          Then we will have to wait and see what future studies show us. I know plenty of professionals who disagree with you. I'll let you guys work that out.

            •  See. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Dave in Northridge, sfbob, bastrop

              Told you that I did not know Boise Blue. LOL

              •  She has posted several comments in this diary (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                bastrop

                I recommend for your consideration.  

                •  I've read them. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  commonmass, Dave in Northridge

                  I am not convinced.

                  •  So you think that she is lying? n/t (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    BoiseBlue, jessical, wader, bastrop
                    •  No. (0+ / 0-)

                      I believe that she believes what she says. I'm just not sure that she understands the issue that well. I'm not sure that you do either.

                      •  Bob thinks you are joking. Are you? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        jessical, bastrop

                        If so, I will avoid debating the matter with you since that perturbs you. However, if you aren't I take strong exception to the comment.

                        •  No, (0+ / 0-)

                          I'm not joking with regard to the post above your comment. You have not stated anything that would assure me that you do know what you are saying. I have not read comments like these from reputable scientists such as Lisa Diamond and others. If and when these folks validate what you state here, I'll change my mind ... not until.

                      •  Uh, what? (3+ / 0-)

                        Because I hold a nuanced view and/or disagree with you, I don't understand the topic?

                        And Dave rec'd this?

                        That's really fucked up.

                        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                        by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 05:47:21 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I don't (0+ / 0-)

                          disagree that you have a nuanced view. I'm just not sure that you really really understand what sexual orientation is. Maybe you do, but I am just not sure. As I stated, I have not read comments such as this from reputable researchers. Perhaps there is some research to validate this viewpoint, but I have just not seen it.

                          I truly do not mean this as an attack on you personally.

                          •  ............... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Richard Lyon, Chrislove, bastrop

                            I think I understand it a lot more than you do.

                            The fact that you think it's an either/or thing proves to me that it is, in fact, YOU who is out of your depth.

                            But you have a good night, and thanks for the personal insults.

                            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 06:06:12 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  My apologies (0+ / 0-)

                            if you felt my comments were personal insults. I truly did not mean for them to be.

                            I think it is an either/or thing for most people (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or asexual), but I did not say that I don't think that there could be an extremely few exceptions.

                          •  I didn't *feel* they were personal insults (6+ / 0-)

                            They ARE personal insults.

                            You are the one who doesn't understand the conversation you're in. You're arguing that orientation doesn't change and I never stated that it did.

                            That you read my comments as such shows that you are way behind in this conversation.

                            And anyway, I'm done here. This conversation, of all the ones I've been in, is not the one for me to flame out over and I'm way too sensitive tonight to deal with people like you, who personally insult me just because you don't understand the conversation that you joined.

                            I'm just not sure that you really really understand what sexual orientation is.
                            I'm just not sure that she understands the issue that well.

                            Thank you for the patronizing tone, but remember that you are the one who got so confused that you said

                             I don't know Boise Blue (1+ / 0-)

                            well enough to determine if I agree with him that his sexual orientation changes

                            when I never said such a thing, and when you were too lazy to look at what I actually wrote before proclaiming something so utterly stupid, and when you tried to claim you had read my comments when they clearly stated over and over and over that I'm a lesbian, and you have the audacity to say that I don't know what I'm talking about, while also making it clear that you didn't even read one of my comments.

                            Goodnight, and good luck. I'll refrain from telling you how you don't know what the fucking you're talking or how you don't understand the topic, but I think you've made that clear enough for everyone here that I don't even have to mention it.

                            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 06:26:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Richard Lyon (0+ / 0-)

                            told me that you were someone who either thought that sexual orientation changes or whose sexual orientation did change back and forth. Some of your comments that I had read at the time indicated that maybe you did.

                            Again, my apologies. I did not mean to offend you.

                            I may not yet understand where you are coming from with all the comments that have been made thus far. But, I assure you that I know the subject matter of this diary. And, I am simply giving my point of view as are others.

                          •  Put down the shovel (5+ / 0-)

                            Because you already claimed that you read my comments and based your opinion on that, now you're saying that you're basing your opinion on something that some anonymous person on the internet told you I said, and claiming that they're false because.... I don't understand the topic?

                            And then dish out insults because you can't follow the conversation?

                            Again, I suggest to you that it is you who does not understand what is happening, is out of your depth in this conversation, and perhaps should refrain from insulting members who can follow a thread all the way through.

                            That is, if another anonymous commenter here tells you it's okay to do so. If he doesn't, well, then feel free to base all of your opinions on what is happening here on a comment he makes. Because' that's, like, totes scientific.

                            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 06:56:30 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  When you are at the bottom of a hole (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            BoiseBlue, wader, bastrop

                            it is time to stop digging.

                          •  Oh wow! (0+ / 0-)

                            Let's see. You have said good night and/or that you would not be back on to comment how many times now, and you keep coming back.

                            Well, here is at least one:

                            And anyway, I'm done here. This conversation, of all the ones I've been in, is not the one for me to flame out over and I'm way too sensitive tonight to deal with people like you, who personally insult me just because you don't understand the conversation that you joined.
                            Well, you think I don't know what I am talking about. And, I am still not sure that you do. I can handle that. I'm certainly NOT going to "flame out" in any case.

                            Richard Lyon stated what I told you. Was I suppose to call him a liar? It sounded as if he knew you. And, I had read your comments at the time. I'm still not impressed, but please do not "flame out" about it.

                            I've apologized how many times now? Three, I think maybe. At any rate, I'm sure one more will not help. I'll leave you to simmer in your vitriol and self-righteous indignation. I promise not to "flame out" over it.

                            Yeah, the shovel is down ... not to worry.

                          •  here's the thing... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dave in Northridge

                            I am incredibly patient and tolerant. But when my fuse blows, it blows. And I fully admit that when it blows, I become irrational.

                            My fuse blew because of something silly: that Dave rec'd your comment that said I don't know what I'm talking about. And I fully admitted that I'm incredibly sensitive tonight because I know that I am. I am in a fuckton of pain and it takes all I have to not cry, so silly little things, like a rec on a comment that insults me, can make me cry.

                            That is why I said I'm out.

                            But at the same time, I lost my patience and once that happens, I cannot sleep.

                            I lost my patience with you because you are intolerable. For that, I apologize, because I rarely lose my patience, and the fact that I did has more to do with outside circumstances that are testing my nerves than it does with your petty little comments and laughable misunderstandings.

                            Let's break this down in a way that someone as simple as you can understand: You still admit to basing your opinion on what Mr. Lyon said, while at the same time still demanding that we offer scientific proof. Does it still not occur to you how incredibly hypocritical and stupid that is?

                            Lastly, your apologies mean nothing, because a sincere apology demands that the person apologizing understand how and where they went so incredibly wrong, and you still don't get that.

                            I'd say goodnight, but I can't sleep and you're easy bait. You really make this too easy. It's like shooting fish in a bucket, and I've got nothing to do but sit here in pain and point out how stupid some people can be.

                            Yes, it makes me feel slightly better, but the swelling has not gone down yet.

                            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 08:40:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok. (0+ / 0-)

                            So, now I'm petty, simple, and stupid. And, you accuse me of insult? That's priceless.

                            I'm soooo glad that your ranting has made you feel better. Rant on! The homophobes do it to me, so why not you as well.

                            Your own pity party is also very touching. Did it ever occur to you that someone else might be going through "stuff" as well. Probably not. You're tooooo busy patting yourself on the back with how well you"shoot fish in a barrel."

                            Is it soooo terrible of me to trust what a fellow gay poster says on this blog? I'd prefer to believe people until I have a reason not to. And, you have certainly let me know my trust was misplaced. So, there's that. Whether sexual orientation changes or not is a different issue, because it sooooo greatly affects what happens to us in the legal system (at this time). So, yes, this requires empirical data as far as I'm concerned. And, who knows? It may prove you correct. But, it has not yet as far as I can see.

                            So, you can read my mind and my heart with regard to how sincere I am in apologizing? Nice to know.

                            Rant on!

                          •  Good night (0+ / 0-)

                            For real this time.

                            I was pretty hard on you in hopes that eventually you would get it, but you obviously won't. That was a failing on my part. I probably should have handled it with kid gloves instead of assuming we could all be adults here.

                            I wasn't patting myself on the back: I was apologizing to you for being too hard on you when I should have practiced more patience.

                            But now that I know you truly are incapable of comprehending anything I write (which I truly think is more attributable to you being stubborn and wrong than it is an intellectual failure), I really am out.

                            It would have been nice if we could have engaged on more pleasant terms, but since you don't seem interested in doing so this conversation has no benefit to you, me, or anyone else who has the misfortune of stumbling across it.

                            I'm going to bed. You can have the last word, and I honestly don't give a fuck how you want to insult me from here on out.

                            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 09:24:13 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  BoiseBlue, (0+ / 0-)

                            I am not your brother ... either one of them. I am a gay man, and I am on your side even if we do NOT agree about everything. We have to learn to agree to disagree. I think we could have a more fruitful conversation, but this one tonight simply degenerated into something much worse ... probably because of outside circumstances for you. me, and possibly others here tonight. We have to learn to be a little gentler with each other. I was too rough too. And, I apologize. I also accept your apology even if you will not accept mine. Good night and peace.

                          •  Oh, and no, (0+ / 0-)

                            you are NOT incredibly patient and tolerant ... certainly not tonight. I think "irrational" (your own word, not mine) probably describes you.

                          •  Have a very pleasant evening, wee one. (0+ / 0-)

                            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

                            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 09:25:16 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You have a pleasant evening as well. (0+ / 0-)
                      •  In that case (5+ / 0-)

                        I suspect you two (or three) are speaking past one another. I find that happens quite often here and elsewhere. It's the source of a great deal of unneeded animosity.

                        You have differing perspectives, each of which you are entitled to have. But I think you each are using words that you presume you agree on the meanings of when in fact your intentions are ever so slightly different from one another.

                        •  You're right. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          sfbob, Dave in Northridge

                          Even though I'm exhausted right now, I've read the conversation through again (twice). And, you are so correct.

                          •  I usually try to exercise restraint in discussions (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dave in Northridge, Richard Lyon

                            online. We might think that the ability to put things down in print makes them tougher to misinterpret, but the fact remains: it's easier to double down in an online discussion than it is to step back and ask for clarification of a statement already made. We miss a great deal of nuance by not being able to have a face-to-face interaction with another person.

                            It can be very tempting to assume that the person who made a statement meant precisely what they wrote as I understand it but so much can go wrong there that I find it better to give the other person the benefit of the doubt and assume that they have a better understanding of their own words than I do.

                    •  I think librarian is joking n/t (4+ / 0-)
          •  I am not saying that it changes (7+ / 0-)

            It is what it is.

            And I am not the only one. As I've said in other comments, I know plenty of straight girls who occasionally want some lesbian action, and straight men who seek out sex with other men, yet they are still heterosexual.

            So why does our community insist that our sexuality is set in stone when we know that that is not true for a number of straight folks.

            P.S. I am not a crackpot.

            by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 05:31:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  It's quite possible that people don't discuss this (12+ / 0-)

        because of the reactions.

        If I try to offer the nuanced view the I put forth on this forum in the real world, I would either have to defend that I am really a lesbian and not just confused, or, if I'm with the LG community, have to defend myself against accusations of self-loathing.

        Let me make this more clear: I am perfectly, 100% comfortable with my own sexuality and romantic preferences. But vocalizing such nuance in the real world creates a backlash that I don't have any interest in fighting.

        Perhaps, just perhaps, if our own community quit forcing each other to accept a rigid either/or identity, it would serve all of us well.

        For example, if I want to fuck a guy every now and then I don't get my lesbian card revoked by either the straight OR gay community. No, I haven't done that in a long time, nor will I for the foreseeable future. But if I wanted to, that doesn't mean that I'm not what I say I am. Choice then becomes irrelevant.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 05:15:12 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Phooey (8+ / 0-)

        If you've never met any "real" bisexuals, I'd argue  you haven't listened to their voices or given those voices credit, for reasons of your own.

        I don't think I get to tell the story of your sexuality.  And I sure as god made kittens don't think you get to tell the story of mine.

        Mileage varies...

        ...j'ai découvert que tout le malheur des hommes vient d'une seule chose, qui est de ne savoir pas demeurer en repos dans une chambre.

        by jessical on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 06:00:46 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Um, I'm one. (4+ / 0-)

        Over the seven serious relationships I've had in the last twenty years, three have been with women, four with men.

        When you come to find how essential the comfort of a well-kept home is to the bodily strength and good conditions, to a sound mind and spirit, and useful days, you will reverence the good housekeeper as I do above artist or poet, beauty or genius.

        by Alexandra Lynch on Sun Jan 05, 2014 at 09:38:02 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Some cross back and forth over the bridge (8+ / 0-)

      while others seem to feel quite at home on the bridge itself.

    •  what does this mean??? (0+ / 0-)

      "a bridge over which some people can cross back and forth"

      bisexuality is, by definition, the bridge and both ends of it.  i have bisexual friends who have had years-long relationships with one gender and then move on to a different long-term relationship with someone of the other gender.  that doesn't mean that they were 'straight' at one point and 'gay' at another--  they were bi throughout.  

      i don't understand what your issue is with this understanding of bisexuality, or, really, the basis of most of your comments on this diary.

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