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View Diary: "Prosecutorial Gaps": The People Vs. The Justice Department (240 comments)

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  •  Well (0+ / 0-)

    The Francoist fascists lasted for several decades. Was that success, just due to the fact that they prevailed in that war? What is your criteria of success? Violently defeating all your more civilized opponents?

    What was successful is that the system worked and improved the lives of millions. It didn't fail due to internal flaws but to the fascists getting help from Nazis and Mussolini, and a few others, as well.

    I find your dismissal a bit too easy and self serving.

    Chomsky, not exactly an unintelligent person, has this to say about Spain, and the importance of their achievements:

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 07:30:56 PM PST

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    •  I'm a numbers guy (1+ / 0-)
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      Show me your success is a pattern and I will gamble on it. Longshots and the unknown are scary and doing things hoping that humans will not be human and fall prey to greed and tribalism during unstable times is a bad bet. For all out faults our country is stable. I do want to go after Wall Street for doing what it has done. As a gambler I am mad as hell that they get the government to bail them out when their bets go bad. It irks me to no end that they get away with sending their representative as Treasury Secretary to the White House no matter who is President. What I don't need or care to mess with is a silly call for revolutions that are massive longshots to succeed. How about we get a small victory like raising the capital gains tax first.

      I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

      by jbou on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 07:45:01 PM PST

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      •  Well, if you think this country is stable... (0+ / 0-)

        And that stability is all that is important, I can see that we will not agree.

        If you call this success, despite the history, then we are very different people.

        Here's something I posted a while back when another Kossack and I were debating this. It's just a little review of US history. Stability is a matter of perspective depending on which group you belong to. If you are poor, or Black, or Indian, or Latino, or a woman, or one of the other counties we helped topple in favor of fascists regimes, the stability you speak of doesn't exist. Did Indians find us to be a stable government? Black slaves? Victims of drone bombings? Stability exists only for the wealthy class, not for the rest of us. Read Zinn's A People's History of the U.S. to get an idea of history from some other source than the elites.

        Oh my... you really don't get it (0+ / 0-)

        You want to thank those who gave minorities, the poor, women, the working class, every paltry benefit they have ever received from "US government"?

        Then thank the people, the activists, the anarchists, the communists and socialists, the agitators and strikers, the labor protestors. Without them, and all they died for at the hands of government violence, we would not have the minimal, inadequate rights we have won from government.

        It was government that made the pro-slavery laws to begin with.

        It was government that stood in the way of equality for years. It was government that wrote the 3/5ths law into the US constitution, which, as a law, was very difficult to overturn.

        It was government that took the lands of free people in the New World, and practiced genocide. It was government which took one third of Mexico for itself by force, and now during Obama's term deports more Mexicans from their own lands than any other administration, while liberals like you pat themselves on the back for government protection of minorities. My god.

        It was government that refused women and minorities, and white men without property, the right to vote, so that in the first election of G. Washington, only 6% (the wealthier Americans) voted.

        It was government that provided enforcement of property "rights" of the owning class over other men during the slavery years.

        It was government which allowed and provided police to violently and murderously suppress worker's strikes to oppress the working class. It was government that tried to break up the unions, and has largely succeeded.

        It was government which has lied the nation into countless illegal wars.

        It was government that took us illegally into Iraq, and Vietnam, the Indian wars, the colonization of other lands.

        It was government that supported fascists regimes, while undermining democratic, socialist states.

        It is government that does nothing about climate change, the hegemony of the banking industry, the enabling of the disparities in wealth between the rich and the rest of us.

        It is government that incarcerates more citizens in the US than any other industrialized country. It is government that sanctions legal murder in capital punishment.

        It was government which has drug its feet for years on environmental protection and still does, bringing human kind to possible extinction in the next 100 years due to inaction.

        And that same government which now ignores international agreements against various war crimes made by a federation of nations to which it is a signatory.

        It isn't government that gave people their rights, it was the threat of revolt, of direct action, of losing support of the people, that forced a perpetually reluctant government to give in and respect rights.

        People are not given rights, but rather have their natural inherent right to live taken away by governments, and when some of these rights are returned, we thank government for the "gift" as if we need government to grant to us what was already ours.

        The only reason we got the "New Deal" is because Roosevelt and the existing plutocrats were worried about the unrest in the population during the great depression. The smarter ones like FDR realized a bone or two had to be given to the workers to keep the peace.

        For fucks sake, women still do not get equal pay in the work place, thanks to government top-down intransigence and imperviousness and inaccessibility to common people. And Blacks are still by far the least employed.

        Your deluded notion it is the central state which provides rights to the people ignores the years of struggle against government to repeal the horrible laws which have allowed all the atrocities to begin with.

        All of these same social rights and benefits can be provided by the people to themselves by free association, with agreements, and bottom up federations participatory communities. It is the people, not some separate, top down, central authority, who demand and fight  for economic and political equality. If not for the enormous struggle, these rights would not exist, if left to the elites in control of government.

        This was done in Spain during the anarchist revolution, and we are yet to provide all that the Spanish provided to their own communities during that period. In the '30s they built hundreds of free public schools, provided universal health care, pensions for all retirees, retirement at age 50, better safety in the workplace, healthier environments for food preparation, more respect for woman's rights, etc.

        In short, they gave themselves egalitarian equality on a scale that the US government has yet to come anything close to recognizing.

        It is never central government that does these things, but the people. When government gives respect to the people, it is only due to preserving the interests of its own existence that it does so.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 08:41:47 PM PST

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        •  yes (1+ / 0-)
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          now start by getting the capital gains taxes raised and using that money to fund things we need. Don't start by calling for a revolt.

          This doesn't need to be dramatic. We don't need all the nonsense buzzwords that end in cy. We need more Pope Francis type moralizing and less conspiracies about rich corpotacracy propaganda machines controlling us.

          I sing praises in the church of nonsense, but in my heart I'm still an atheist, demanding sense of all things.

          by jbou on Mon Jan 06, 2014 at 08:55:11 PM PST

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          •  You want to reform the system (0+ / 0-)

            Go for it, but count me out. We just tread water that way, as was the design's intended result. It makes us think we're winning, when we're just getting crumbs from the table, and arguing over how big the crumbs should be. Reforms make the crumbs slightly larger sometimes, but that is only temporary, lasting until the lords find another way to get around the system. And its been that way since the inception.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Tue Jan 07, 2014 at 04:47:00 PM PST

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