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View Diary: The Reasons Edward Snowden Will Not Receive a Pardon or Executive Clemency (302 comments)

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  •  There is so much bullshit here, it is tough (31+ / 0-)

    To know where to start. But, let me try.

    To "steal" is to take another's property without permission with no intention of returning it.

    He did not "steal" anything. The data is still there. He merely copied material that he was authorized to work with.

    This is evil propaganda, pure and simple. I call bullshit on such pseudo-intellectual twisting and mangling, not to mention selective editing.

    What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

    by agnostic on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:56:34 AM PST

    •  Your definition of steal is wrong. (10+ / 0-)

      And you don't know if he was authorized to work with. That's just his claim. He had access obviously but he very likely was not authorized to even read much less copy and disperse the information.

      And if he is so pure why did he take himself to where he thought he would be totally immune from any consequence before he disclosed.

      I don't let a ideological guy like Snowden decide what is legal.

      He says he did it to start a conversation. Well that occurred and yet he is still disclosing more and more stuff. He is a narcissistic anarchist in my book.

      The diarist's report is a valid way of looking at it. It is therefore not evil or propaganda.

      I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

      by samddobermann on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:29:35 AM PST

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      •  Yet you apparently ARE quite content (16+ / 0-)

        to let a ideological guy like John Yoo decide what is legal.

        Probably Edward Snowden violated Federal laws as written. I have no problem with his prosecution... after the Bush-era criminals from Bush and Cheney on down are prosecuted. I have a BIG problem though with prosecuting some "political criminals" and letting others smirk in freedom and prosperity.

        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

        by PhilJD on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 06:19:12 AM PST

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      •  Yeah, I'll just rely on the legal definition. (7+ / 0-)

        Now, i admit, that certain groups, like the Movie, Record Label and Gas Lamplighter's association that sued so many teenagers and threatened to jail unemployed moms for sharing a song DID try to redefine the word "steal" for their own economic benefit, but luckily reality and a far more rational approach has replaced that temporary sickness and legal lapse.

        I am not talking about any "purity" - that whole concept is a construct by the NSA and its minions to change the topic and to take away attention from the crimes being committed by our government.

        The Diarist has regurgitated GOP, NSA, and Obama Admin talking points that have been honed, tested, and repeated in many forums, in the hopes that the sting of the real story goes away in the kerfuffle. Given the tone of the diary, it seems to be working, at least with lapdogs, paid operatives, or those gullible enough to avoid rational thinking.

        Judicial supervision and control. What BULL. Even the FISA folks admit it does not work. See generally, former FISA judges who were lied to by Justice, the CIA and the NSA and don't like it one bit.

        Executive supervision? That is a guess, nothing more.

        Legislative?
        Q: Are you collecting domestic phone data?
        A: No.
        Yeah, that's some great supervision. I loved their reaction after Snowden proved that to be an utter lie.

        Lastly, calling an agency., a committee, or a group that has supervisory tasks (Extremely limited, by the way, and populated by ex-NSA creeps) is also calling the EPA, OSHA, USDOT, IRS, and other groups another branch of government. That is such a ineffably stupid argument that it hurts to bring it up.

        Ours is a CONSTITUTIONAL form of government. It has Seven (count em) S E V E N Articles, three of which create the working government, i.e. the Legislative, the Executive, and the Judicial. The other Articles deal with the creation of this document as an effective, enforceable entity, with the means of making the country work pragmatically, and with the chance to change the Constitution when needed.

        There is no 4th Branch of government, except in the minds of assholes who change the subject to confuse the issue and hide the outrageous crimes of the State against its people.

        What we call god is merely a living creature with superior technology & understanding. If their fragile egos demand prayer, they lose that superiority.

        by agnostic on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 07:29:18 AM PST

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        •  The very worst "abuse" that ... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hey338Too

          ... Snowden's revelations have shown is akin to a sorting machine out of calibration for a couple of hours in the Denver Regional United States Postal Sorting Center.

          That's all mine. Everything that isn't quoted or linked to is my work product. I have not taken anyone's arguments and "regurgitated" them here. Give me some credit for original thought!  

          What Snowden did reveal was the amazing procedures in place to protect privacy, and, most importantly, we learned that Government was doing all that oversight when they thought nobody was watching.

          By the way, I'm the cool outside troublemaker here, so don't even think of trying to take that away from me.  ; )

          Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting. On biblical prophesy: If you play the bible backwards, it says, "Paul is dead."

          by Tortmaster on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 08:45:30 AM PST

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          •  I would like ot recommend the comity of this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Tortmaster

            comment, but cannot.

            I just can't believe that what you came out of this with was a renewed faith in privacy protections.

            I do appreciate the tone and tenor, but jeez louise, open your eyes man.

            Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

            by k9disc on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 08:48:57 AM PST

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            •  I did a diary about ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Hey338Too

              ... it a little while ago. Consider this: Digging into the scab of New Jersey politics has revealed new pockets of pus every day. Snowden absconded with millions of documents of information, and the best he was able to reveal was telephony metadata! That's been legal since 1979! (It was probably legal before that but the Supreme Court wasn't presented with the question.)

              All of that oversight protecting privacy was put in place and acted upon in secret, with the actors believing their actions would never become public for decades and decades. This is from my earlier diary on this topic:

              I've read the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court's ("FISC") recently published opinion, and I was immediately struck by one thing: It was an Advisory Opinion. One of the first things you learn about Federal Courts is that they don't do Advisory Opinions. That's because of the "Case or Controversy" requirement, which means that a case before a Federal Court must litigate a tangible interest between real parties that is ripe for adjudication.

              The other major attribute of Advisory Opinions is that they are prospective in nature. The litigant seeking an Advisory Opinion is asking the court: "Is this legal? Is this Constitutional? Is it advisable?" What I liken the FISC process to is the hoops that law enforcement and prosecutors have to jump through to obtain search warrants. Let me show you how the process worked in the FISC case. First you have a chest full of information or data like this ....

              Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting. On biblical prophesy: If you play the bible backwards, it says, "Paul is dead."

              by Tortmaster on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 09:48:47 AM PST

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              •  Yea, I don't think metadata is all that has been (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tortmaster

                revealed. It's content. It's infrastructure interception. It's plausible deniability and gaming of the system through secret joint relations with foreign intelligence agencies and corporate profits.

                It's crazytown with the ability to hoover it all and target individuals that threaten the Establishment.

                I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm sure we'll chat more about this.

                Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

                by k9disc on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 10:24:30 AM PST

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    •  Ahhh..the Originalist view. Defining a word (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tortmaster, doroma, Peace Missile, NYFM

      the way it was defined when it was coined. Bork would be proud of this argument.  But I'll play along.  There are plenty of other laws he violated besides shoplifting.  Not sure why diary was HR'd.  

      If I comply with non-compliance am I complying?

      by thestructureguy on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:38:17 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  aah the strict constructionist... thinking Smith (12+ / 0-)

        is as germane today as when it was passed.

        Or something like that...

        We do these things all the time.

        I would counter the HR, but I do not want to recommend this diary. I think it is an honest representation of the Establishment line, and as such, I find the entire line of argument entirely disingenuous. It is predicated on a reality that doesn't exist anymore - it's an anachronism.

        Personally I don't know whether Tort is aware of this or not, but it doesn't matter. This is not only an allowable point of view, it is the point of view. This is the Establishment line. Clear as day.

        HRing this is a worthless endeavor. Better to step in and talk clearly about how this view of the NSA as protector of American citizen and bastion of law and crafted and overseen with legal care is absolute bullshit.

        The NSA is a collection of spooks and spies cashing in on the privatization and weakening of vital government institutions and self governance. Corporate profits are all woven into the NSA. It's a train wreck.

        Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

        by k9disc on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:53:42 AM PST

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    •  Sen. Leahy calls on congress to end (11+ / 0-)

      agree, agnostic

      Some Democrats do not buy the propaganda...

      Senator Patrick Leahy questioned how the Constitution allows the National Security Agency’s bulk collection of U.S. telephone records and repeated his calls for President Barack Obama’s administration to end the program during a hearing Wednesday.

      The Obama administration should heed the recent advice of the U.S. Privacy and Civil Liberties Oversight Board (PCLOB) and end the phone records collection program, said Leahy, a Vermont Democrat.
      “Is there anything in the U.S. Constitution that gives authority to the Congress to pass a law that enables and empowers an executive agency such as the NSA ... to open, to listen or to seize either the mail, the phone conversations or the electronic conversations of U.S. citizens?” asked Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee.
      Leahy called on Congress to vote to end the telephone records program. Congress should “ensure that this legal theory is not used by any administration to spy indiscriminately on its citizens,” he said. The U.S. Department of Justice’s current interpretation of the antiterrorism Patriot Act would allow the government “to acquire virtually any database that it might someday, down the road, for some reason, somehow find useful,” Leahy added.
      http://www.pcworld.com/...

      For our fallen solders who come home from Afghanistan to Dover AF mortuary, "God bless the cause of "The Good War" for which they died" - As if any war can be called Good in its 13th year, America's longest war.

      by allenjo on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 07:10:29 AM PST

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