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View Diary: Death possibly caused by GW Bridge Closure (111 comments)

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  •  i object to these kinds of um "posts"... (0+ / 0-)

    what, when did dKos become Faux News?

    death possibly caused? unless you have some pretty hard data, I'd delete this.

    how do we keep credible with this kind of unsubstantiated allegation? and it makes the Rec List. incredible.

    Christie must be unseated. but not with using the same tactics as the bad guys. really.

    “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

    by pfiore8 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 04:03:14 PM PST

    •  A woman did die (34+ / 0-)

      EMS responses were delayed.

      It is hardly idle speculation that the death was related to the delay.

      And some people say that comparing me to Fox News is a low blow.

      I'm on a mission! http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1233352/51142428#c520 Testing the new site rules.

      by blue aardvark on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 04:09:07 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  it is idle speculation. period. (0+ / 0-)

        until you give me the hard data that shows it was a delay in care... then, certainly, go with it.

        I'm not comparing YOU to Fox News, but this kind of posting.

        i am tired of this kind of thinking. sorry, but there you have.

        “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

        by pfiore8 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 04:48:11 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Of the 4 EMS calls they had two experienced (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Chi

          a 2x delay in transit time. I have not found anything yet that said the woman who died was one of the two. We've got a 50-50 chance.

          I'm on a mission! http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1233352/51142428#c520 Testing the new site rules.

          by blue aardvark on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 04:52:39 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  plus... (0+ / 0-)

            i'm not sure if there is any hard and solid data that proves Christie ordered or knew about the shutdown ... i mean, do I think he's capable of it? YES. in fact, it's highly likely, from observing his SOP, he either asked for some bright ideas or came up with it on his own.

            anyway... what is alleged and what is hard and sure data are two different things.

            “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

            by pfiore8 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 06:08:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Oh come on (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              blue aardvark, Brown Thrasher

              You KNOW he did it. No one picks their nose in that administration without clearing it with the top asshole.

              He's a bully with a nasty attitude.

              He was pissed that the Dem in Ft. Lee defied him so he decided to teach him a lesson.

              I can see him now, in his office with his cronies chuckling over reports of the gridlock.

              His minions will fall on the sword and be paid handsomely to do so.  But we all know exactly what happened.

              •  we are NOT talking about what we feel or think (0+ / 0-)

                or guess.

                give me the hard fast evidence. otherwise: stop this fucking noise. and start playing for credibility.

                “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

                by pfiore8 on Thu Jan 09, 2014 at 03:33:06 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  The preponderance of evidence, to me, suggests (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Brown Thrasher

              that he did approved it.

              Both the people involved (Kelly and what's-his-name the traffic chief) had worked with Christie for years. If he's truly "outraged", how could they not have known he would be?

              I'm on a mission! http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1233352/51142428#c520 Testing the new site rules.

              by blue aardvark on Thu Jan 09, 2014 at 07:21:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  suggestive... you know he did it... we don't need (0+ / 0-)

                proof.

                if their side did the same to our side, we'd be outraged.

                let's just face it: we aren't about fair or correct or just. this is plain bullshit. we don't care as long as we land a blow to their side.

                the sad thing is this:a big bullshitter like Christie makes bigger bullshitters out of people like us writing stories using inuendo for facts.

                stop it. let the data tell the story. we don't need to analyze it. we are corrupting ourselves with this kind of thing and not doing it right.

                “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

                by pfiore8 on Thu Jan 09, 2014 at 03:37:36 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Every minutes delay (13+ / 0-)

          by emergency vehicles lowers the chance of survival for a critical patient.

          Even if this death would have occured anyway the fact that this happened at all is bad enough.

          We should attack now when they'd least expect it #WarOnChristmas

          by AnnetteK on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 04:54:35 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  the story is in the shutdown. for now. absolutely. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            drmah, AnnetteK

            it's horrible because it could have cost someone their life. absolutely.

            but let's wait for the data. let's not go around making up titles to diaries because it makes us feel better or like this really means something.

            do you really think this is going to bring Christie down? I thought Richard Clark's revelations were a slam dunk, mission accomplished. BushCo was OVER. i really did. never occurred to me how many people didn't look at it; were so biased as republicans, didn't buy it, even though reality was sharply aligned with Clark's assertions.

            so let's hold onto our credibility and try to stick to relaying events according to reliable data.

            “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

            by pfiore8 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 05:59:41 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  New information indicates that paramedics (21+ / 0-)

          had to meet the ambulance transporting the woman on her way to the hospital rather than being there from the beginning.

          Maybe a 91 year old with a heart attack is not going to make it regardless. But if she had a slim chance, Christie took it from her.

          See above.

          I'm on a mission! http://www.dailykos.com/comments/1233352/51142428#c520 Testing the new site rules.

          by blue aardvark on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 05:00:03 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Ever heard of res ipsa loquitur? (12+ / 0-)

          Heart attacks are an emergency that require immediate attention.  Otherwise the likelihood of death increases quickly.  This woman's medical attention was delayed; she died.  It speaks for itself.  What other evidence do you want?  The exact moment in time when each strand of muscle tissue in her heart stopped working?

          •  i don't want guesswork. (0+ / 0-)

            it isn't good enough. the relationship isn't clear: did she or did she not die because of delayed care? are you telling me with certainity that this is the case?

            too many people are run over by sloppy police work or worse, have their civil liberties or lives stolen. bad and biased reporting has greatly undermined the discourse in this country and our ability to ferret out credible data from baloney (Benghazi anyone?)

            if Christie's actions resulted in this woman's death, then it needs a full throttle response: like some kind of neglegient manslaughter. i'm all for it.

            but until then, this only becomes grist mill fodder. we don't need more noise.

            “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

            by pfiore8 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 05:54:48 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  It's unknowable whether the delay caused (4+ / 0-)

              the death. But it's perfectly defensible to say that the delay made her death more likely. And that's enough. Certainly nothing like Benghazi.

              Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
              Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
              Code Monkey like you!

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              by Code Monkey on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 07:05:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  So how exactly do you prove beyond a (0+ / 0-)

              reasonable doubt that she wouldn't have died anyway even if they had gotten to her instantly.  Exactly, it is impossible so we should just STFU about it.  After all, "Diminished odds" cases are extremely difficult to win.

              You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

              by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 07:48:24 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  This is not a court case. (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              sethtriggs, PinHole, Brown Thrasher

              We may not know at this point, or ever, whether this particular woman's death can be made into a criminal indictment.  But that is not the question at hand.

              This is the question that we do have to answer: why is this lane-closure scandal such a big deal?  People in comment sections are asking precisely that, trying to minimize the whole affair.  The delay in this woman's care is a real and vivid demonstration of why blocking traffic for days is a big deal.

          •  actually this won't work in court (3+ / 0-)

            It would be very very difficult to prove that "but for" the bridge closure, there would have been a different outcome. "Diminished odds" cases are extremely difficult to win. This is not a case I would take on a contingent fee, much as one would like to nail Christie for the consequences.

            Making political hay with it, on the other hand, is just fine. I hope the woman's family are already Democrats.

            •  As it probably shouldn't (IANAL). (0+ / 0-)

              You're supposed to demonstrate actual harm, no? “Maybe harm” doesn't cut it? Whether she would have lived is an unanswerable question, and courts have enough trouble getting at the answers to answerable questions …

              Code Monkey like freedom / Code Monkey like peace and justice too
              Code Monkey very nerdy man / With big warm fuzzy bleeding heart
              Code Monkey like you!

              Formerly known as Jyrinx.

              by Code Monkey on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 07:07:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  My parents lived to that age. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          old possum, Brown Thrasher

          Every minute of delay meant increased chances of death.
          Are you totally unfamiliar with the health crises of the aged?
          Really?

          •  what has your comment to do with (0+ / 0-)

            my push back to a diary that asserts something without the data to back it up?

            it is all speculation at this point.
            wow. incredible. "am I totally unfamiliar with the health care crises of the aged?" i'm shaking my head, really.

            btw, my mother had a heart attack because the doctors didn't recognize the signs of a woman having a heart attack. yeah. right. she was exhibiting the symptoms, went to the doctor and told him it was like a flu or food poisoning, but not like anything she'd ever had. he was going on vacation and told her not to worry. she was down at a shopping mall for christs sakes the following monday.

            so please.

            “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

            by pfiore8 on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 06:35:05 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  We will be able to see (0+ / 0-)

              how this plays to a jury or at least public opinion, won't we?
              Can't wait for the poll results, or jury verdict.
               

            •  But then again, even if she wasn't able to get (0+ / 0-)

              any care at all how can you prove that the lack of care was what killed her?  After all, what if she was beyond saving even if they got to her instantly?

              You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

              by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Jan 08, 2014 at 07:45:52 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  good question: (0+ / 0-)

                the doctor told us, once my mother was in a coma lying in the hospital on a ventilator that the heart attack was a mild one, but she stopped breathing at the same time as her heart stopped beating. the EMTs were there within 10 minutes, but it was too long ...

                so, when my mother went to the doctor's office on friday, as she did, and he would have known she was exhibiting signs of a woman having a heart attack, she would have been saved as are most men.

                her heart didn't explode or anything like that.

                “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

                by pfiore8 on Thu Jan 09, 2014 at 02:24:38 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

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