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View Diary: UPDATE X3: There WAS a traffic study, but Wildstein's 'test' actually screwed it up (177 comments)

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  •  I can't agree. (8+ / 0-)

    The parties involved deliberately failed to inform the mayor or the populace of their plans and ignored requests for an explanation of their actions. They are criminals.

    •  Now read 550 (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      rb608, Louise

      You'll find a mail from a third party contractor listing in detail the dates of the 4 main activities, with the traffic collection data project occurring from 9/9-9/16 (but Foye closed that part down after 4 days).

      At this point I've read the entire thing. I am a 3rd party vendor who often does government projects. This thread of mails to and from contractors, engineers, etc. from page 494 on shed an entirely different light on all this.

      It is really interesting stuff to read and because of the duplication, moving through the material takes only a few hours.

      At this point, I need to see Bridget Kelly's emails in COMPLETE context because with what I now read, I think the study was completely legit. Mails even detail how there are NO traffic counters in Ft. Lee so they don't know exactly what will happen. Another engineer chimes in that he thinks it is going to be bad for the locals in Ft. Lee because they already wait between 7-10 minutes to get through the tools. All those mails are on company accounts and matter of fact. They are also consistent with how contractors, project managers, etc. communicate in advance of a project.

      I'm an honest person who will not play double standards. As much as I was hoping to find smoking guns, I have found the opposite.

      I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

      by pajoly on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 05:40:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why not inform the public or the local (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        wasatch, scamperdo, sethtriggs

        police or the mayor?  Why were requests for an explanation ignored?  Those are issues.  Read the testimony of Samson where he refuses to hand over the documents that would prove his excuse.  He said he would incriminate himself if he did.  He resigned rather than answer questions.  His colleague pled the Fifth yesterday.  Sorry; you are no doubt honest and sincere and competent, but I remain unpersuaded.

        •  That is the part that may have in fact been (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rb608, Lib Dem FoP

          political in nature.

          I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

          by pajoly on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 06:01:32 PM PST

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          •  Thanks for the dialogue. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            rb608

            Kind of you to write this diary.  I enjoy reading it.

          •   I agree (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kurt

            If you read some of the press cuttings digests, you will find that there was an article in a local paper warning about the closure of a road in southern NJ to allow for a charity run and that this would likely cause traffic problems (Therefore locals should take this into account when planning their journeys)

            I find it extra-ordinary that if a fairly minor problem could be warned about in advance, nothing was notified about the "TL24" test. Were any of the MSM told about it so they could warn?

            The "killer" question is who initiated the change to the plan plan to add the reduction of the three lanes to one rather than the two which seems to have been the most testing scenario suggested by the professional traffic engineers.

            We will work, we will play, we will laugh, we will live. We will not waste one moment, nor sacrifice one bit of our freedom, because of fear.

            by Lib Dem FoP on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 09:31:00 PM PST

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      •  The "Smoking Gun" (0+ / 0-)

        Is that this is all part of the planning for the "Center and Lemoine Avenue Bridge Construction project. The lane closing were legit to test to see if the "new" pattern might be one they could sustain during the construction project.

        All the real technical conversation is extensive between engineering teams and mid-level Port Authority folks, construction managers, vendors, etc.

        I woke up this morning expecting the exact opposite of what I am discussing. Once other intellectually honest people study this part of the docs, they'll put forward the same conclusion.

        I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

        by pajoly on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 05:58:09 PM PST

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        •  I think you're wrong.. (6+ / 0-)

          Look at the e-mails I posted in the diary. Why would Rivera (Chief Traffic Engineer) be talking about having to re-do the legitimate traffic study because of the Wildstein 'test'?

          Also, if you look at the names on the e-mails dealing with the legitimate H&H traffic study, you'll see almost no overlap with the names on the Wildstein 'test'.

          Cheers.

          Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich Schiller

          by databob on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 06:16:56 PM PST

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          •  Bob, I think they were accessing two distinct (0+ / 0-)

            things. Test TL24 was to see if the revised pattern would be sustainable during the construction. That had to occur during a normal work week AND include one weekend, thus the planned 9/9-9/16 period. One week earlier and it would not have picked up normal traffic patterns as school would not be in session.

            The other data set needed is the ACTUAL count of people through the 3 booths so they'd know the full volume RELATIVE to the normal pattern.

            Two different things.

            Like I said before I MUST see the pols private emails of the period within context now, because as I read it, I see nothing more nefarious than the pols being heartless pricks to the grief the TL24 test caused.

            I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

            by pajoly on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 06:27:42 PM PST

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            •  Sorry, heartless pricks don't plead the 5th (7+ / 0-)

              If the 'TL24 test' was legitimate, Wildstein and Baroni wouldn't have 'voluntarily' given up their jobs - and careers - and why would they need to take the 5th now?

              There's an old saying (that I just made up): If you want to know if your ship is sinking, just watch the rats.

              Besides, if you want to actually witness the chaos of blocking off 2 lanes - which you don't need to do because it is entirely predictable and easy to model on a computer - you certainly wouldn't pick the same week that there is a study scheduled to gather data for NORMAL traffic flow, would you?

              If you had to do both studies and they were both legitimate and they couldn't be done concurrently, you'd just delay the camera one.

              Cheers.

              Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich Schiller

              by databob on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 06:55:49 PM PST

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              •  I wish we had all the material (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                wasatch, CenPhx, Louise

                this is too much disconnect between the political and tech stuff. I look forward to more disclosures.

                Regardless how this one falls, I am captivated and think it kills Christy either way. Once their is an army of smart people digging into his shit, this stuff will not be the worst to see the light of day. I expect his quashing of the 43 count indictment of a friend will be worse for him and since that's going to trial in a wrongful termination suit, it is all gonna come out.

                I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

                by pajoly on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 07:24:14 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I agree with both of your thoughts (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  CenPhx

                  There is so much we don't know - such as what happened between 8/5 and 8/28, why Baroni quit, whether Kelly really originated the whole thing, etc, etc, etc.

                  The real question now is how badly damaged Christie is...

                  If this peters out now, he is wounded, his prospects for 2016 are bleak and his ability to help other Republican governors as head of the RGA is damaged.

                  If a few more revelations appear that connect Christie, then he's toast..... he'll have to resign the RGA job (in favor of Kasich? Brownback? Perry? Snyder?) and he'll have to resign as governor possibly, and 2016 is gone.

                  I think I'd rather see a wounded Christie.

                  Cheers.

                  Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich Schiller

                  by databob on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 07:59:25 PM PST

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        •  Bull (6+ / 0-)

          you don't need to close the lanes to know that traffic will be impacted. You can run computer simulations to know that.

          You might get some readings on NORMAL flow to run the simulations on what closings will do, but you don't close lanes on a heavily trafficked bridge to find out how bad it wil be if you close the lanes.

          •  Wrong, you need data to run simulations (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pdx kirk

            In one of the mails one of the engineers specifically notes that Ft. Lee has NO traffic counters so they were not certain of the volume it generates. The most they knew was anecdotal information that a normal day required one person to spend about 7-10 minutes to get through the toll.

            I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

            by pajoly on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 06:30:08 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  So you don't close lanes to get the data (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              pdx kirk, Cardinal Fang, kurt, sethtriggs

              you monitor a NORMAL traffic pattern, and then run the simulations using that.

              Closing lanes is not how you'd do it. That throws everything off, pisses off a ton of people, and doesn't help at all.

            •  Again, you're wrong IMHO (6+ / 0-)

              There is no need to 'test' changes to traffic flow by putting up cones.

              In the city I used to live in, I worked with the planning department on a study of projected changes to traffic flows related to the new general plan - a 30 year look forward at the future of the entire city. No traffic was disrupted, and the only data collected was of existing traffic. That data was put into a database and applied to software that enabled modeling of traffic flows for the entire city based on different scenarios of development.

              I can't believe that the Port Authority of NYNJ and the GWB don't have software to model traffic flow across the GWB, and if some politician suggests closing 2 toll lanes, they could easily provide the results.

              Cheers.

              Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich Schiller

              by databob on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 07:03:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  pajoly, my experience as an architect.... (5+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CenPhx, kurt, sethtriggs, True North, SneakySnu

              ....who has worked with traffic engineers is that they can work with a wide variety of data sets and get to solid answers without having to do any live testing. They can take data from a Sunday and a Thursday and extrapolate the other days with resonable accuracy.

              All public works departments have a ton of data already available and traffic engineers have many formulas available to insert variables and sufficiently predict results.

              Heck twenty years ago they did this work without computers.

              In the case of the GWB they can start with the traffic studies they did to determine that Fort Lee needed three lanes in the first place!

              I just can't buy that this 'TL24' study was legit, much less that it HAD to go on all week for them to answer the question of possible time savings for commuters on I 95.

              .....it's on the table, under the watermelon she demurred. Thanks, I was planning on shaving anyway he replied.

              by pdx kirk on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 08:09:39 PM PST

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      •  The legitimate study didn't close any lanes.. (8+ / 0-)

        and in fact, as I have documented above, they talked about having to re-do the legitimate study because the data was corrupted by the Wildstein 'test'.

        cheers

        Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain. Friedrich Schiller

        by databob on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 06:20:03 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Did you see my reply above? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          pdx kirk

          Where I think they were looking for two distinct data sets.

          I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do, because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. - Susan B. Anthony

          by pajoly on Fri Jan 10, 2014 at 06:32:36 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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