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View Diary: Why the Pope would be powerful even if he weren't Pope (118 comments)

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  •  The church doesn't control anyone's body. (2+ / 0-)
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    JuliathePoet, mmacdDE

    I'm pretty sure the only Catholic theocracy left is the Vatican itself.  They have every right in the world to make their moral case, and even lobby to have policies reflect their views like anyone else.  However, if you cannot legally control your body, your beef is really with the government, not the church.

    •  Ummm..... (2+ / 0-)
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      Fishtroller01, NonnyO

      ....that's like saying the KKK is fine because it doesn't control any state governments. Propagating foul opinions matters. And you don't get the right to say one bad thing because somewhere else you said one good thing.

      You are responsible for what you advocate. And the Church, because of its absurd and arrogant pretensions ("Vicar of Christ," "Church Universal," and so on) claims far more authority and thus takes on far more responsibility than any earthly ruler. They made that bed, and they can lie in it.

      "They bash your face in, and say you were always ugly." (Solzhenitsyn, Gulag Archipelago volume 3)

      by sagesource on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 12:45:57 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  By all means... (4+ / 0-)
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        marykk, frostbite, JuliathePoet, Skyye

        ...speak out against church teaching, but likewise the good should not be discounted because of teachings you don't like.  The KKK analogy doesn't quite work because it exists for no purpose other than hate and sometimes violently manifests that hate.  The Church exists if anything to manifest God's love, which in their view includes to the unborn, and as this Pope is trying to convey, is just a small part of what they teach.

        •  You might think the church exists "if anything" to (0+ / 0-)

          manifest god's love, but a lot of us would disagree that's why the church exists. It certainly isn't a given . . .  And loving the unborn is swell--but what about loving the already born of the female gender?

    •  Right. The RCC NEVER uses its power (1+ / 0-)
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      NonnyO

      or wealth to influence government!

      •  Of course they do. (2+ / 0-)
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        marykk, JuliathePoet

        I thought I acknowledged that.

        •  No, you said that a woman's beef (0+ / 0-)

          about their bodies being controlled is solely with the government's and not with the church.

          The US bishops conference PAYS it's own lobbyists to influence government on issues of women's rights and birth control every day in this country (and in other countries too).   So the beef is just as much against the church as it is the government.

          •  But it is for the government to decide... (0+ / 0-)

            ...as with any other lobby, whether to listen to them or not.  If the implied message is the Church made us do it, that is a cop out.  I also said people should speak out against the church just as I for example would speak out against the NRA, but again it is ultimately elected officials who make the decisions and need to be held to account.  One difference though is I don't believe the church has a PAC or otherwise funds campaigns.

            •  The church itself can not have PAC (0+ / 0-)

              but CatholicVote.org is a PAC.  And of course, it works to finance the campaigns of candidates who follow the church's teachings.  

              Then there is this from the Human Rights Campaign website...

              "The Roman Catholic Church and its affiliate, the Knights of Columbus, played a leading role in funding anti-LGBT equality efforts in the four states where marriage equality was on the ballot this fall. The Church hierarchy invested nearly $2 million in the failed attempts to write discrimination into the Minnesota constitution and stem marriage equality in Maine, Maryland, and Washington. Dioceses from across the country supported these efforts financially, thought it’s doubtful that the parishioners fueling these contributions had any idea that their money was being used to fund discrimination."

    •  They don't need to control anyone's body... (1+ / 0-)
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      mmacdDE

      As long as the Vatican/pope/clergy brainwashes them with religious doctrine, the peasants will control themselves.

      It has worked that way for two millenia.

      I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

      by NonnyO on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 08:09:49 PM PST

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      •  Very true (1+ / 0-)
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        NonnyO

        and in some places, it works too well.

        Not everywhere though. Most catholic women in this country use birth control, and don't think anything about it.

        When the government puts restrictions on birth control it has a lot more effect on ALL women, not just Catholic ones.

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