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    •  2nd amendment!! you Kenyan COMMUNIST!!! (40+ / 0-)

      God but I hate these gun fanatics...."senseless" is an understatement....

      "There's no ideology [t]here [on the right]. It's just about being a dick." Bill Maher, June 22, 2012.

      by caseynm on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 07:41:19 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

        •  We have become a sick, sick society. (20+ / 0-)

          Anger, resentment, fear, bigotry, hatred, ignorance, and greed have replaced any sense of community, commonweal, togetherness and mutual respect as the dominating forces in the lives of our citizenry, and the dominating forces of our politics.

          There are lots of good people to whom this does not apply. But somehow, we have allowed this to happen. We have always been beset by ignorance and "me-first" attitudes in this country. But never to this extent. I fear this is what society looks like when we allow unfettered greed and $$$$$ to dominate.

          How sad. How stupid. How very UNNECESSARY.

          "We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. But we can't have both." - Justice Louis Brandeis

          by flitedocnm on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 10:54:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Murders are way down (5+ / 0-)

            we just hear about ones like this, over and over, from our content-free media.

            •  Right. I'm sure that's a very soothing statistic (16+ / 0-)

              to the family of the dead father.

              "We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. But we can't have both." - Justice Louis Brandeis

              by flitedocnm on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 11:26:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Typical brain-dead response (3+ / 7-)

                But please, if that helps you feel morally superior, carry on.

                •  Actually, typical brain-dead comment (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  mookins, BobBlueMass

                  I'm from the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Democratic Party

                  by voicemail on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 11:45:36 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  HR'd for namecalling and general violation (9+ / 0-)

                  of DBAD guidelines.

                  "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

                  by blue in NC on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 02:55:22 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  YAAD (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    unclebucky, denise b

                    I make a perfectly valid and pertinent comment, and this jackass basically implies I have callously offended the grieving family.  No logical connection to my comment, no attempt to respond to my comment.  No, just basically a dickish comment.

                    Maybe not a brain dead one, but sadly in a vegetative state.  

                    Then you ride up to the rescue.  Now the two of you can ride off on your beautiful white steed, high above the rest of us.

                    •  Your comment was the first jackass one. (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      blue in NC, BvueDem, Lost and Found

                      Re-read the one you were so offended by.

                      •  You mean this? (0+ / 0-)
                        "Murders are way down (4+ / 0-)
                        we just hear about ones like this, over and over, from our content-free media.
                        Yeah, I guess that was a completely jackass statement.  But I couldn't tell you why.  Enlighten me.
                        •  No, (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          blue in NC, churchylafemme, redwagon

                          your reply to the comment after that.

                          •  You mean this one? (0+ / 0-)
                            Right. I'm sure that's a very soothing statistic (7+ / 0-)
                            to the family of the dead father.
                            Yeah, it was a jackass comment.  I'll translate it for you:

                            "You care nothing for this family who have been devastated by this loss."

                            Besides being false, and a classic non sequitur, it oozes a kind of sanctimonious, fake moral one-upmanship that I find nauseating.  

                            Then we have the comment by Captain Frogbert below:

                            So as long as murders are way down
                            a FEW people get to mow down annoying people in movie theaters and it's just hunky dory. Good to know.
                            Again, a fallacious statement that does not follow from my comment in any way. Instead, we get another episode of "Ride the High Horse" by distorting someone else's views.  Sounds suspiciously like how the GOP operates...

                            So yeah, I think they're full of shit.

                          •  Are you being willfully obtuse? (9+ / 0-)

                            This is the comment I was talking about:

                            Typical brain-dead response (3+ / 1-)
                            But please, if that helps you feel morally superior, carry on.

                            by Be Skeptical on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 02:32:19 PM EST

                            It was absurdly over the top in response to a comment that wasn't even mildly insulting.  The fact that you took it as an insult directed at you says more about your ego than the intent of the poster.
                          •  Sorry if you don't get it (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            IrasburgEd

                            It''s not about whether I am insulted.  It's about the glib distortions that are bandied about here.  All the time.  
                            Then when someone gets a little fed up with having to play the straw man game, they are attacked.  

                            I admit to being in a cranky mood.  But comments like that suck. Really.  They stifle honest discussion, and set people against each other on false pretenses.  

                          •  What's silly about you and your dittoheads (0+ / 0-)

                            You get all worked up about a word like "braindead", while never, ever addressing any of the points I made.  Now that's obtuse.

                            Then we have this comment below that contains the following:

                            We should outlaw white people in Florida.
                            Two recs. Zero HRs.  

                            What a bunch of fucking hypocrites.

                          •  You are not sketical (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            blue in NC, Sharon Wraight

                            You are just being unkind here. Being a jerk does not make you a reasoned skeptic.

                            I am very sad about the death of a father of a three year old.  I  do not take this as a reason to rejoice in statistics. Yes, there are lots of arguments about murder, with an interesting analysis of lead exposure, gun control, aging populations, and economic conditions. There are reams of scholarship on guns.

                            But you are just throwing out a little bit of vile at a virtual funeral.

                          •  Please, what was vile about this? (0+ / 0-)
                            "Murders are way down we just hear about ones like this, over and over, from our content-free media."
                            Bear in mind the original comment that I was responding was one that claimed "We have become a sick, sick society."  I thought that was a

                            The point I was making, apparently lost on most here, is the media sensationalizes these murders, when in fact they are becoming less and less common.  It was not addressed to anyone's family, but to a group of people who often critique the media for their grotesque distortions.  This is not a funeral--there are plenty of popcorn jokes here.

                            Yet you say:

                            I am very sad about the death of a father of a three year old.  I  do not take this as a reason to rejoice in statistics.

                            Who is rejoicing in statistics?

                            But let me state something explicitly, so you can understand it and not misconstrue any other statement I make as coming from one who simply rejoices in murder statistics, and as it seems to be a prerequisite to any other comment:  I am very, very sad about the death of a father of a three year old.

                            And by the way, did you give an HR to the comment below that said "We should outlaw white people in Florida."   No, I didn't think so...

                          •  Do explain who will bear the cost of raising this (0+ / 0-)

                            child now?

                            The answer is simple, the government, unless or until mommy remarries, then we'll no longer give a damn.

                            Well, all save one, who really doesn't give a damn now, it's only a one off event, so we should do nothing whatsoever to prevent even one unnecessary death.

                            I spent nearly 28 years of my life in military defense of this once great nation. Your desire to ignore even one unnecessary death of the civilian populace disgusts me and makes me honestly sorry that I wasted so long.
                            We'd make out equally well with the Taliban running this clusterfuck of a nation.

                          •  The Taliban also distort facts & close their minds (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            suetiggers

                            So did your delicate sensibilities get stirred by the comment below that called for the banning of white people from the state of Florida?  Or are you just another judgmental hypocrite with seriously impaired reading comprehension skills?

                            Your failure to even state the grief you feel for the loss of this child disgusts me.

            •  So as long as murders are way down (12+ / 0-)

              a FEW people get to mow down annoying people in movie theaters and it's just hunky dory. Good to know.

              And I just have to add... How in gawd's name to you "text noisily?" Seriously, the whole point of texting is that it's quiet. My phone makes a tiny little clicky noise when I text and I can mute it.

              This asshole was just looking for an excuse. Typical gun nut who should spend the rest of his life in jail.

              Too bad no other "responsible gun owner" was there to save the day and shoot this guy before he managed to murder an innocent father. But, then, they never are, are they?

            •  Murders by "professional" criminals are down. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Be Skeptical

              The field is being dominated by first-timers now.

              •  You could very well be right (0+ / 0-)

                Also, the first-timers may commit a greater fraction of the sort of sensational crimes the media seizes on for endless repetition.
                And congratulations!  You are the first person who actually responded to the content of my comment.  For that I thank you.

                •  I acknowledge your statistic (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sharon Wraight

                  But beyond the evasion... there's the fact that you intended the comment to belittle this TYPE of occurrence.  No, I don't think any malice was intended towards the victim's family, but a measure of trivializing these types of events was very much intended.
                  By the same token, the person who originally responded with "I'm sure that's a very soothing statistic to the family of the dead father." was (again, obviously) not doubting your statistic, or suggesting any malice on your part.   This comment simply reads as a statement of how, regardless of statistics, this type of event is STILL tragic, unnecessary and a more and more often scenario in today's gun-frenzied society.
                  As for the statistic...
                  Yes, homicides are on the decline.  Though, it should also be pointed out that they have been on the decline for the past 2 decades.  Non-criminal shootings and deaths are on the rise.  That is to say, shootings having nothing to do with robbery, gang violence or any connected crime, in scenarios that previously didn't escalate to deadly violence, are occurring more and more frequently.
                  So, your statistic has pretty much nothing to do with the story here.  Your reaction to one commenter is also blatantly overreactive.  I'd also note that your repeated use of "high horse" suggests that you most likely disagree with most progressive concepts, because considering one tragedy to be too many is hardly extreme in the progressive realm.

                  "It is NOT weak to value LIFE!" -Raiden

                  by jayfrenchstudios on Wed Jan 15, 2014 at 11:03:48 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Here is why I'm pissed (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    HairyTrueMan

                    Read my initial post in the context of the one I was replying to, which almost no one seems to bother to have done.

                    That poster claimed "We have become a sick, sick society."  Now that is a personal view, obviously formed by hearing about tragedies like this.  But I don't think that characterization is correct, or helpful.  Our perceptions have been distorted by the incessant media shrieking about events like this.  My comment did not specifically address the individual tragedy of the murder in Florida.  But neither did that poster's.

                    I know it's not fashionable here to go against a purely doom and gloom view of the world, but that world view sure as hell doesn't get Democrats elected.  Many people here claim this is a "reality-based community," but I see little evidence of that.  They seek the realty that meets their preconceptions, just as the Right does, and dismiss or belittle or distort any information that doesn't reinforce their views.

                    Why do you think that essentially the same two or three comments are made out of the hundreds written in response to a story like this?  Why is almost any comment that doesn't line up within the narrow channel of acceptable perspectives attacked?  Read my first comment.  There is nothing in there that implies, even remotely, that I do not find events like this tragic.  There is nothing in there that implies I do not find this murder despicable.  But then, the commenter of the "sick, sick sick society" post didn't make any specific reference to this murder either.  Nor, for that matter, did you.  You addressed, as I did, a specific comment made.  

                    You state that "your statistic has pretty much nothing to do with the story here."  Well, it was really was a reply to the comment above.  Do you understand the context a little better now?

                    I am curious how the mind of this reality-based community works (and it is something of a groupmind).  Therefore I have a few questions:

                    In the first sentence, you refer to my "evasion."  I assume you are speaking about the response I made to ThinkingDem. If so, I  have no idea what you are talking about. Please explain.

                    Then, immediately following, you write "there's the fact that you intended the comment to belittle this TYPE of occurrence."  Well, your "fact" is incorrect.  How was it belittling this TYPE of occurrence?  Is pointing out the actual fact that this TYPE of occurrence (murders) has gone down, but the public's perceptions of them as evidence that we are a sick sick, sick society has gone up, is due in large part to the media's near complete focus on horrific crimes and celebrity trivia really "belittling" this type of occurrence?  No, the comment is not on the horror of this type of crime, but on the widespread perception that this type of crime is getting worse and worse.  Do you see the difference?

                    Then, in your next point,

                    the person who originally responded with "I'm sure that's a very soothing statistic to the family of the dead father." was (again, obviously) not doubting your statistic, or suggesting any malice on your part.  
                    you left out the poster's first word. "Right".  You know what that meant in the context of what followed.  It was clearly meant to to imply I didn't give a fuck about the family's grief.  Are you really not familiar with the way certain language is used to miss that?  And yes, I found it offensive.  As would you.  Be honest.  Then I get one even more direct:  "I am very sad about the death of a father of a three year old.  I  do not take this as a reason to rejoice in statistics."  Do I really need to spell out the implications of that statement?  Really?  Do I really need to explain why I would find that offensive?

                    And this:  "you are just throwing out a little bit of vile at a virtual funeral"

                    And this, about those who care about the death of this child: "Well, all save one [me], who really doesn't give a damn now, it's only a one off event, so we should do nothing whatsoever to prevent even one unnecessary death"..."your desire to ignore even one unnecessary death of the civilian populace disgusts me"

                    And "So as long as murders are way down a FEW people get to mow down annoying people in movie theaters and it's just hunky dory. Good to know."

                    And this: "my kid was shot to death here- and no, not by accident, but by some evil piece of shit that simply bought the murder weapon from some simple minded fucking law abiding responsible gun owner who couldn't have given a flat fuck about the buyers background nor was necessary to check. No problem there, right? All legal and proudly so, correct?   Until it's your fucking kid, right?"

                    And this "Go clean your gunz or something"
                    And this "A simple idea of liberalism is that what is fought for should be for the betterment of society, for the common good. Name one damn thing about cheerleading for assholes to walk around with gunz hidden upon their person that is for the common good, or betters us as a country."

                    And this: "I have to deal with a bunch of gun toting assholes living where I do thanks to those of you who cheerlead  their proliferation."

                    As a loving parent, as a decent moral person, as a human being who has spent decades in service to the poor and disadvantaged, as a person who has worked and contributed to bring about sensible gun control, I found these comments deeply offensive.  And infuriating. And profoundly fucked up.  Yes.

                    As a liberal, I find them disheartening.  The lazy assumptions.  The heavy-handed public moralizing (a painful characteristic of many on the Left, unfortunately, and on the Right, where it is appropriately ridiculed) and it does absolutely zero to get our candidates elected. It is merely a form of public self-anoitment as a superior moral being.  Always unpleasant to observe, it is particularly yucky when they hoist themselves up onto the pedestal by falsely attacking someone else.

                    I would 100% agree with your statement that regardless of statistics, this type of event is STILL tragic, and unnecessary, but not necessarily that it is becoming more and more common.  

                    We can discuss the statistics another time--it is admittedly complicated.  I am not familiar with data that shows that "Non-criminal shootings and deaths are on the rise."  As I said to the commenter immediately above, that may well be true.  Do you have a citation?

                    And yes, I got pissed off.  I DO believe that one tragedy, even while I believe that one tragedy doesn't provide a great deal of evidence that we are a sick, sick sick society. And yes, I know it's more than one. And yes, each one is tragic.  And yet, we are a country of over 300 million people.  Does the fact that the murder rate has dropped over the past 20 years make us a less sick society?  Why is asking a question like that callous in the original context?

                    And yes, there are a lot of high horse riders here, sneering down at anyone they do not consider worthy of participating. They don't care about this man's death any more than me or just about anyone else of our fellow 300 million.

                    •  I would recommend that you put this into a diary. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Be Skeptical

                      But I honestly don't think anyone will address the points you are making. I don't post half the comments I write here because I know that people are going to intentionally misconstrue them.

                      BTW, another point was made in this diary that the man in this story might be alive if he hadn't acted like a douche bag. Another commenter (a frequent troll patroller) likened that statement to a rape victim asking for it... blaming the victim. Yet no one at all seems to think that the old man wasn't completely wrong; No question he should be behind bars. It is entirely possible that the old man was a trigger-happy lunatic looking for trouble AND the victim shouldn't have acted like a douche bag and thrown popcorn at a cranky old man. But nuance is no longer celebrated here.

                      Like the troll patroller suggested, if you see any nuance in this story, then you must be in favor of rape.

                      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                      by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jan 16, 2014 at 08:06:04 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Hey Hairy (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        HairyTrueMan

                        Would that be a "Goodbye Cruel World" diary?  It's tempting.  I involve myself sporadically, and admittedly submit comments that are often somewhat contrarian.  But I do read many very informative and amusing diaries, and for that I am grateful to the site.  When there are dozens of comments, of a similar nature, many of them clever and interesting, I don't feel compelled to add another one to the stack that basically says the same thing.  I do rec many comments that are compatible with my views, which most would characterize as extremely liberal.  But after living for many years in Berkeley and Cambridge, Mass, I have learned that being liberal is more than a political world view.  In settings like that it is a club, with certain rules, including what one can and cannot say.  This site has many of those characteristics.  The geographic origins of this website may bear on that attitude.  However, I find that some of the most senior members, like Kos and Meteor Blades, are not particularly dogmatic.  But for many of the most regular participants, there is a certain sameness of attitude.  When I am moved to comment, it is often because of an error in fact or logic that is being propagated, or when another commenter's views are being distorted or demeaned without good cause.

                        It's funny, because I feel I do more good poking holes in some of the sacred beliefs held here than I do trying to convince Yahoo readers that Obama is not the Antichrist.  I really would like to see less cant and more intellectual rigor, and less tolerance for error and easy dismissals of slightly dissenting views.

                        Well, I am out of steam on this thread.  Maybe I should make a nice dinner , have some nice wine, and chillax, as my teenagers would say.

                        •  Ideology and politics aren't the same thing. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Be Skeptical

                          This is mostly a political blog for Democrats. And it's hard to use critical thought when your starting point is that your political party is always right. What's creeped into this diary is the Democratic perception that guns are to blame. Your assertion that gun violence is actually lower flies in the face of that belief, hence the pushback and hide ratings. It is counterproductive to the Democratic Party agenda of more gun control.

                          If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

                          by HairyTrueMan on Thu Jan 16, 2014 at 08:56:41 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  I read this thread and totally agree with you! (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Be Skeptical

                      I read this thread and totally agree with you.  Too often people jump to conclusions on what another persons intent was when posting something.  Especially when we all have different personalities and points of view.  This most recent post made a lot of sense to me and I agree with you completely!  

                      •  Thanks for taking the trouble (0+ / 0-)

                        I wonder if I am suffering from a bad case of masochism.  I hate the "knee-jerk liberal" label, but boy, we've got some doozies here.  Anyhow, here's to more tolerant, open, and reasonable discussions.

                        •  I hear you. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Be Skeptical

                          I actually DO understand what was going on in the exchange a little better now.  I also agree wholeheartedly that most of those who were truly tearing into you were ridiculously overreacting and cruel.  I'll give them a little leeway in the capacity that this type of tragedy is enraging, and easy to make one attack with little cause.  Still wrong, but understandable.
                          In my own defense, you claimed that the situation was "clear", but I disagree.  It's easy to lose track of who is commenting upon who and in what stance.  I understand now that you were commenting on the "sick, sick world" quip, which was definitely a comment on the story, but vague.
                          I'm with you 100% on the uselessness of pessimism and defeatism.  I've never agreed with people who throw up their hands and scream "What is this world coming to?"  I don't believe we're any better or worse off than at any time in history.  Every era has it's pros and cons.  Republicans like to especially reminisce about the 50s (which was primarily viewed as a positive era for the Democratic legislation), but they ignore Jim Crowe, rampant domestic abuse, etc.
                          I will stand by my point that these non-crime connected shootings are on the rise.  I discovered this through research.
                          Yes, sometimes progressives can clap their hands over their ears when they're not hearing what they feel fits into their view of the world.  Then again... for every progressive that does this, 100 conservatives are doing it.  It's not nearly as rampant a problem on our side of the fence.  Of course, that doesn't change the reality that it does happen.
                          I applaud your constant efforts to progress our society, but I suggest taking a less adversarial stance with those on your own team.  More flies with honey... a gentle hand rather than a clenched fist... and all that.
                          Thanks for taking the time to clarify!

                          "It is NOT weak to value LIFE!" -Raiden

                          by jayfrenchstudios on Thu Jan 16, 2014 at 10:06:25 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Nicely put, thanks (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JuliathePoet

                            You make some very reasonable and wise points and I will try to keep them in mind when I am afflicted with temporary bouts of grumpiness.  I appreciate your willingness and effort to review this trail and understand my pov.  I now feel a little silly about the whole thing--it just caught me at the wrong time.

                          •  That'll happen (0+ / 0-)

                            We are all of us human...
                            At least your arguments still had validity.  Defeatism gets us nowhere as a party and a movement.
                            I often consider patriotism to be nothing more than overblown school-spirit.  On the other hand, the U.S. always has and maintains the capacity for improvement.  Truly, any country does.  It is in that concept that I retain hope.
                            Thanks for the discourse!

                            "It is NOT weak to value LIFE!" -Raiden

                            by jayfrenchstudios on Sat Jan 18, 2014 at 05:50:01 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  How nice to hear some common sense. (0+ / 0-)

              I would like to hear from an unprejudiced witness.  For example, after tossing popcorn, did the young tough go after the apparently helpless old man?  If so, he deserved to get shot.  Hopefully young toughs will stop attacking the elderly.  

          •  Become? Do you know your history? We always were. (0+ / 0-)

            Everyone Chill the fuck out! I got this - unknown but credited to Barack Obama

            by natedogg265 on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 04:39:06 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hmm, Brandeis… (0+ / 0-)

            That there don't sound like no Mericun name.  Must be a 'filtrator from one of them Commie cuntrys, perdin my frinch .  Fashionists….

            I'm damaged and I like it, it made me what I am!

            by Damaged262 on Wed Jan 15, 2014 at 08:19:17 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  When he left... (51+ / 0-)

      did he go out to his car to get his gun?

      Could the popcorn have made this formerly responsible gun owner fear for his life?  Stand your ground and all that you know.

      Or did he become enraged that these people did not recognize that he was a retired cop that would have thoroughly intimidated them when he was in uniforn and had the authority to arrest them on the spot or kill them with the blessings of the judicial system if they showed any minor inkling of resistance.  No respect = shoot to kill.

      Or was he just a dangerous asshole all his life.

      The republicons moan, the republicons bitch. Our rich are too poor and our poor are too rich. Ferguson Foont

      by Josiah Bartlett on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 10:00:01 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Do you think the popcorn (8+ / 0-)

      throwing will allow a stand-your-ground defense? Do you think the shooter feared for his life?

      Will he dare?

      Being attentive to the needs of others might not be the point of life, but it is the work of life. It can be ... almost impossibly difficult. But it is not something we give. It is what we get in exchange for having to die. - Jonathan Safran Foer

      by ramara on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 12:51:12 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  The Gun Nutz™ have long asserted that armed (12+ / 0-)

      vigilantes in movie theaters would make for an excellent public-safety enhancement.

      What could possibly go wrong?

      "Bernie Madoff's mistake was stealing from the rich. If he'd stolen from the poor he'd have a cabinet position." -OPOL

      by blue in NC on Tue Jan 14, 2014 at 03:00:50 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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