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  •  Sure it can. if he stopped after (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Tortmaster, Jim Riggs

    disclosing this one area — and stayed in the country....

    I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

    by samddobermann on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 02:13:56 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  to be treated to a fair trial (24+ / 0-)

      like Bradley Manning? When the president had already declared his guilt on national television. Where could he get a fair trial?

      "These are established professionals that have a liberal bent, but ultimately most of them if pushed will choose professional preservation over cause, such is the mentality of most business professionals" -BoA/HBGary/CoC

      by LieparDestin on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 03:38:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Edward Snowden declares ... (6+ / 6-)

        ... his own guilt every day that he remains a fugitive from American justice. In some federal jurisdictions, a Judge might give an instruction to the jury about that behavior and what it might mean. In all federal courts, it is a crime:

        18 USC §1073. Flight to avoid prosecution or giving testimony

        Whoever moves or travels in interstate or foreign commerce with intent either (1) to avoid prosecution, or custody or confinement after conviction, under the laws of the place from which he flees, for a crime, or an attempt to commit a crime, punishable by death or which is a felony under the laws of the place from which the fugitive flees, or....
        Unlike Manning, Snowden would be tried in a civil court. There are procedures in place to attempt to obtain a fair and impartial jury. If there exist people who didn't have an opinion in the Simpson, Blake or Zimmerman cases, then there are tons more with no predisposition towards Snowden.

        Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting. On biblical prophesy: If you play the bible backwards, it says, "Paul is dead."

        by Tortmaster on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 05:06:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Im admittedly naive (13+ / 0-)

          on most technical aspects of the law but...

          1) to avoid prosecution, or custody or confinement after conviction
          doesn't that come into play somewhere?

          "These are established professionals that have a liberal bent, but ultimately most of them if pushed will choose professional preservation over cause, such is the mentality of most business professionals" -BoA/HBGary/CoC

          by LieparDestin on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 05:12:07 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Not for Snowden because of the "or" ... (6+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Smoh, AoT, Drocedus, blueyedace2, JoanMar, fcvaguy

            ... as his situation is discussed before the "or." I had to re-read that statute, so that was a good question. I believe the relevant part--getting rid of the surplusage--would read as follows:

            Whoever moves or travels in interstate or foreign commerce with intent ... to avoid prosecution ... under the laws of the place from which he flees, for a crime, ... which is a felony under the laws of the place from which the fugitive flees....
            The commas, the "ors" and the numbered sub-sections always make these things confusing. The English make a better job of it.

            Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting. On biblical prophesy: If you play the bible backwards, it says, "Paul is dead."

            by Tortmaster on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 05:20:14 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  "American Justice" ? (30+ / 0-)

          people who did torture out on book tours

          person who pointed it out in jail

          that is American Justice for the powerful

          Blast from the way past ....

          Socrates: First, shouldn't we explain how a democracy becomes an oligarchy?

          Adeimantus: Yes.

          Socrates: The crutical step is that the rich figure out how to manipulate politics so the laws benefit them instead of the public.

          Adeimantus: So it seems.

          Plato, Republic, 550d

          Translated by the author of the outstanding book, Keith Quincy

          His book is “Worse than You Think: The Real Economy Hidden Beneath Washington’s Rigged Statistics, And Where To Go From Here”

          •  Couldn't agree more with this: (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueyedace2, JoanMar, fcvaguy
            Socrates: First, shouldn't we explain how a democracy becomes an oligarchy?

            Adeimantus: Yes.

            Socrates: The crutical step is that the rich figure out how to manipulate politics so the laws benefit them instead of the public.

            Adeimantus: So it seems.

            But in my mind, although perhaps not in yours, two wrongs don't make a right.  

            Rand Paul is to civil liberties as the Disney Channel is to subtle and nuanced acting. On biblical prophesy: If you play the bible backwards, it says, "Paul is dead."

            by Tortmaster on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 05:23:06 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  False (23+ / 0-)

          Fleeing the country is not declaring any sort of guilt. He fled the country because he feared unjust prosecution.

          And you are basing your claims on the fact that he isn't a whistle blower. If he is a whistle blower then he's done nothing illegal to flee from under that statute.

          You're really twisting reality now. You may as well be the cop who's arrested someone for nothing more than resisting arrest.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:04:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  People keep.... (9+ / 0-)

          ...trotting out this trope as a way to try to prove what he revealed is some how corrupted or evil or some sort of fruit of a poisonous tree.

          It is all BS and Snowden is irrelevant.

          What he showed about what the government does to us in our name is very important.  And Obama notwithstanding, will continue to do to us.

          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

          by delver rootnose on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:21:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  "after conviction" "declares his own guilt" (11+ / 0-)

          Has Snowden been tried in a secret trial and been convicted by some secret court?

          Whoever moves or travels in interstate or foreign commerce with intent either (1) to avoid prosecution, or custody or confinement after conviction
          So this is now the American justice system?
          Edward Snowden declares ...(0+ / 3-) ... his own guilt every day that he remains a fugitive from American justice

          For our fallen solders who come home from Afghanistan to Dover AF mortuary, "God bless the cause of "The Good War" for which they died" - As if any war can be called Good in its 13th year, America's longest war.

          by allenjo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:28:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The law in question applies (9+ / 0-)

            even if he is avoiding prosecution and hasn't been declared guilty already.

            Of course, we should probably assume that he is innocent until proven guilty given the country we're in. Not that Tortmaster is interesting in legal niceties like that.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:35:39 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  given the country we're in.... (11+ / 0-)
              Of course, we should probably assume that he is innocent until proven guilty given the country we're in:
              or not........

              US Intelligence Workers Want Snowden To Die

              “In a world where I would not be restricted from killing an American, I personally would go and kill him myself,” a current NSA analyst told BuzzFeed. “A lot of people share this sentiment.”

              and,
              “I would love to put a bullet in his head,” one Pentagon official, a former special forces officer, said bluntly. “I do not take pleasure in taking another human beings life, having to do it in uniform, but he is single handedly the greatest traitor in American history.”

              One Army intelligence officer told BuzzFeed about a fantasy of Snowden’s death:
              “I think if we had the chance, we would end it very quickly,” he said. “Just casually walking on the streets of Moscow, coming back from buying his groceries. Going back to his flat and he is casually poked by a passerby. He thinks nothing of it at the time starts to feel a little woozy and thinks it’s a parasite from the local water. He goes home very innocently and next thing you know he dies in the shower.”

              For our fallen solders who come home from Afghanistan to Dover AF mortuary, "God bless the cause of "The Good War" for which they died" - As if any war can be called Good in its 13th year, America's longest war.

              by allenjo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:28:52 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  HR's for right-wing authoritarian garbage. (7+ / 0-)
        •  Breaking: King George III issues warrant (15+ / 0-)

          for arrest of US revolutionaries who refuse to turn themselves in to British authorities! What cowards! What traitors! What human scum! KILL THEM!!!

          "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

          by kovie on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:53:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  How whistleblowers are barred from defending them (9+ / 0-)

          selves in court:

          http://pando.com/...

          a good read

          Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

          by greenbastard on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:57:57 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  bogus HRs. nt (5+ / 0-)

          Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

          by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:40:56 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  even more bogus OP (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            4kedtongue

            with the sidekick handpuppet ever at the ready.

            Sheesh.

            “Vote for the party closest to you, but work for the movement you love.” ~ Thom Hartmann 6/12/13

            by ozsea1 on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:45:33 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  When you say that someone has "declared his guilt" (6+ / 0-)

            and that person has done no such thing then you deserve an HR.

            I'm sure you'll find a way to spin this report to fit your claim that no laws were broken.

            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:45:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  I think the post is clear (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Tortmaster, fcvaguy

              that the poster wasn't saying Snowden was expressly declaring his guilt.  

              It's an inference from being a fugitive.  Pretty solid one too.

              Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

              by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:52:42 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Utter nonsense (11+ / 0-)

                Spin all you like though.

                It's a bunch of made up nonsense that's intended to cast Snowden in a bad light.

                And there's that legal concept we here in the states have of innocent until proven guilty. Of course, you clearly don't care about that. Neither do any of the defenders of these mass violation of our civil rights.

                If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:58:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Putting Snowden in bad light is forbidden! (5+ / 0-)

                  You might want to think about this new rule against opinion on daily kos.  Because you're including noticing that Snowden is a fugitive.  And take it from me, it's the fugitive that makes Snowden look bad, not the post.

                  Well, whatever.  Its not like censoring tort master is going to make people forget that the last thing Snowden wants is a jury of his peers.

                  Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                  by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 08:06:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  concerning a jury of his peers (12+ / 0-)

                    http://pando.com/...

                    How whistleblowers are barred from defending themselves in court

                    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                    by greenbastard on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 08:17:15 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  whistleblowers are barred from defending themselve (12+ / 0-)

                      How whistleblowers are barred from defending themselves in court

                      Trevor Timm, executive director of the Freedom of the Press Foundation...

                      Every American should be outraged that leakers and whistleblowers are being prosecuted under an espionage statute without ever having to show they meant to harm the U.S. or that any harm actually occurred.
                      Given there are two dozen bills calling for the reform of the NSA in the wake of Snowden’s revelations, there should also be reform of the Espionage Act, so it cannot be used by the government as a sword to protect itself from accountability.
                      This is not really about Snowden or any other whistleblower. It is about the right to a fair trial. Whether you loathe Snowden or love him should be immaterial to your view of whether the accused should retain such a right.
                      You can be on the side of the Obama administration, which has made clear it doesn’t believe the accused have such a right  (in its extrajudicial assassinations, it has further made clear that it doesn’t believe people deserve to be even formally accused of a crime before they are summarily executed).
                      Or you can stand on the side of the “due process” principles that are supposed to make sure the justice system is as fair to defendants as the dissembling political class claims it is.

                      For our fallen solders who come home from Afghanistan to Dover AF mortuary, "God bless the cause of "The Good War" for which they died" - As if any war can be called Good in its 13th year, America's longest war.

                      by allenjo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 08:57:24 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Not prevented from defending themselves. (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tortmaster

                      Raddack says this:

                      And there is no whistleblower defense, meaning the public value of the material disclosed does not matter at all.
                      At common law and often codified, there is a justification of necessity, that is, that the law needed to be broken in order to prevent a greater harm.  

                      It's available when the facts fit it.  Raddack's confusion of "it's not available" and "it's not available because the judge didn't think that there was evidence of it applying here" is a nice bit of obfuscation from a lawyer who is pressing for Snowden to be exonerated before anyone knows precisely what he did.

                      Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                      by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:14:45 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  from a separate article, if you don't like JR (11+ / 0-)

                        http://www.mercurynews.com/...

                        No court has allowed a leaker of classified information to escape punishment on those grounds, Pozen wrote in a Lawfare blog post on the subject.

                        The first person convicted of espionage for furnishing classified data to a journalist was Samuel Loring Morison, who was employed at the Naval Intelligence Support Center in Suitland, Md., from 1974 to 1984. He was convicted of spying for leaking intelligence photographs in 1984 to Jane's Defence Weekly, a British military magazine. Morison was sentenced to two years in jail, and later was pardoned by President Bill Clinton.

                        The Obama administration has pursued leakers aggressively, and Snowden's breach was far more sweeping than Morison's.

                        Snowden's legal representative, Ben Wizner at the American Civil Liberties Union, said the government likely would not ever let the jury hear his client's arguments for releasing the information on moral grounds.

                        "The Justice Department has successfully barred defendants in leaks prosecutions from mounting any kind of public interest defense by using the Espionage Act," Wizner said. He said all the government would have to prove is that Snowden took national defense information and gave it to someone who wasn't allowed to receive it.

                        "The government doesn't have to prove that the disclosures were harmful to the country. The defendant can't defend himself on basis that documents shouldn't have been classified ... and lower courts have upheld that," Wizner said. "That's why Edward Snowden is not taking his chances in a federal court. He wouldn't be able to explain himself."

                        Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                        by greenbastard on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:51:47 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  aka 'Kangaroo Court' (4+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          4kedtongue, TheMomCat, Sandino, JesseCW

                          without the ants the rainforest dies

                          by aliasalias on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:24:49 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  It's available. It fails because of the facts. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Tortmaster
                          No court has allowed a leaker of classified information to escape punishment on those grounds
                          And it wouldn't work for Snowden, either, since much of what he leaked isn't illegal.  Didn't work for Manning.  That's not unfair, or a lack of justice, but recognizing that both have indiscriminately leaked information that has nothing to do with any of the actions they say were illegal.

                          See, what the people who want Snowden to get off scot free think is that his status as a hero for revealing the metadata program means he should be forgiven everything else.  That's not justice, that's a blank check.

                          Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                          by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:53:18 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  It's available it's just never been allowed (7+ / 0-)

                            Right.

                            Do you even read what you write?

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:09:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "allowed to escape punishment". (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tortmaster

                            Speaking of not reading.  Or did you think that having a defense available means it's going to be a winner?  There's a whole bunch of guys in prison who claimed self defense and lost.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:21:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So it has literally never been used (5+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead, ozsea1, Sandino, JesseCW, 4kedtongue

                            but it's "available". You just think it has never been appropriate. Because you think that classified information is sacred. Or something, who knows. If it has literally never been used then it isn't available for any reasonable meaning of "available". Of course, you use the NSA definitions of words so who knows what you actually mean.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 02:14:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Noooooo..... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tortmaster

                            It hasn't succeeded.  You think Snowden is going to come home if he can make a case to a jury and lose?

                            Of course not. The point isn't a fair trial.  It's to avoid one.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 02:19:00 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If it has never succeeded then (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead, ozsea1, Sandino, 4kedtongue

                            it isn't available. One can only avail themselves of something that actually works. Since this never works it is not available. Again, you're using absurd definitions of words. He would never come home because a necessity defense would never be available to someone who released classified information. It never has been and never will be.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 02:26:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nooooooooooooooo....... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tortmaster
                            One can only avail themselves of something that actually works.
                            But I understand why you insist that the defense "isn't available" just because in Snowden's own case, he'd lose.  You have to pretend that clear guilt and no credible defense means he isn't given a fair trial.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 05:47:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  This isn't about just Snowden's case (5+ / 0-)

                            This is about the defense literally never working. In which case the defense is clearly not available to anyone who has released classified information.

                            And yes, something is only available is it if possible that is can work. Otherwise it's theoretical only.

                            So in no way is being a whistle blower available as a legal defense ever for people who leak classified information.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:03:06 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Even if that's true, the fact it's never won an (0+ / 0-)

                            acquittal doesn't mean it's not available.  It means that the people who claim to be whistleblowers, or to be acting solely in the public interest without any alternatives, aren't.

                            E.G., Snowden.  Notably, while asserting that Snowden revealed illegal activities about metadata, nobody says that EVERYTHING Snowden revealed is illegal or even against US interests, like spying on other countries.

                            And don't bother arguing otherwise until you know exactly what Snowden stole.  

                            So he'll get some credit for something, like Manning, and get clobbered for the rest.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 06:51:03 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  I completely agree with this part... (5+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Johnny Q, DeadHead, triv33, ozsea1, JesseCW

                    ...of your comment:

                    Well, whatever.
                    Regarding Snowden's 'fugitive' status [translated:  Asylum status], more of this from you and Tortmaster would be greatly appreciated.

                    all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                    by 4kedtongue on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:14:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Then you'll uprate it Tortmaster's comment? (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ord avg guy, Tortmaster

                      No.  The point is to keep anyone from casting a bad light on Snowden's ....er.....temporary asylum status in only place that truly loves freedom as much as you.

                      Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                      by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:17:07 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  No... (6+ / 0-)

                        ...I won't uprate Tortmaster's comment.  I'll admit that I haven't followed the thread carefully, but the diary concerns an independent gov't agency's finding that mass meta-data collection of is not only illegal / unconstitutional, but useless as a counter-terrorism measure.  No inference necessary.  

                        As far as I'm concerned, this finding only further confirms Snowden's whistleblower status, and until the indictments against him are dropped, he is being politically persecuted and is seeking asylum, not a fugitive from justice.

                        all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                        by 4kedtongue on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:27:19 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I see. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          ord avg guy, Tortmaster

                          The more innocent he is, the more he should be avoiding the trial.  

                          How.......convenient.

                          Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                          by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:34:49 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  A trial... (8+ / 0-)

                            ...conducted in secrecy is the pinnacle of convenience.

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:47:11 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And by "secrecy" you mean...... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ord avg guy, Tortmaster, jdsnebraska

                            Twelve jurors, a judge, press access and an appeals process?

                            Finally.  A defect in the justice system that has united white college educated leftists in a single voice of protest.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:57:18 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm going to walk away from you now. (6+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            allenjo, Sandino, DeadHead, triv33, ozsea1, JesseCW

                            You're not interested in justice or rule of law.

                            And if we weren't in a conversation with each other, I would h/r your race-baiting claptrap.

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:32:27 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Good riddance. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ord avg guy, Tortmaster

                            I'm pretty sick of the high dudgeon of justice and rule of law rolled out to justify a fugitive from justice and rule of law.  

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:40:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But you're proud of supporting a free pass for (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat, 4kedtongue, stevemb

                            those who tortured.

                            So there's that.

                            But then, the guy who made that call is neither white nor a leftist, so I can see why you're on board.

                            "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                            by JesseCW on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 12:24:29 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Heh. Yeah, I'M the one run out of arguments. (0+ / 0-)

                            "You're so proud of being a Bush lover!!!!1!!1!!".  

                            Got yerself a real winner there.  Look, is that Snowden getting a tickertape parade?

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 07:12:11 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  and since they'll be discussing (8+ / 0-)

                            matters of "national security," don't you expect a good bit of the hearing would be held behind closed doors due to the classified information under discussion? (Just because it's been leaked publicly doesn't unclassify it, you know.)

                            Finally.  A defect in the justice system that has united white college educated leftists in a single voice of protest.
                            Clear sign that you're gradually losing the argument, thread by thread, drip by drip. If any of your other horseshit was getting traction, you wouldn't need to go there.

                            You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

                            by nota bene on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:16:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In poker... (7+ / 0-)

                            ...that's called a Tell.  He wasn't waiting to go there -- he's been dying to go there.  It's the primary reason he enters these diaries.

                            Glad he's on record...as one of the very few who even acknowledge his presence by engaging him in these types of diaries, it's all the easier to dismiss him out of hand from here forward.

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:23:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Both tortmaster and inland, best to ignore (7+ / 0-)

                            which I will "pretty much" do. As you say, dismiss out of hand is the best.

                            For our fallen solders who come home from Afghanistan to Dover AF mortuary, "God bless the cause of "The Good War" for which they died" - As if any war can be called Good in its 13th year, America's longest war.

                            by allenjo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:41:45 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Except for the HRing, of course. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ord avg guy, Tortmaster

                            Because you can't trust other people to be quite as dismissive.  

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:46:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, and what's more, the jury would still hear it. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tortmaster

                            How much of Manning's hearing was classified?  Not much.

                            But thanks for all the deep concern over the rights of the accused white guy with access to legal teams and supposedly the ability to obtain justice as long as he's given a pardon before we even know what he did.  It's a huge vote for justice.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:45:06 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  why do you keep bringing race into this? (7+ / 0-)

                            also, re: secrecy in US v. Manning, see here.

                            You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

                            by nota bene on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:06:51 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Because the sudden interest in criminal procedure (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tortmaster

                            when the college educated white guy with resources appears is pretty transparent.

                            Why else would you use "secret evidence" as a point of objection?  You've got a judge.  An unbiased jury.  A lawyer to be provided, free if he can't afford one from the government.  But suddenly no, our justice system is just too unfair for us to actually judge the man because some evidence might not be seen by you personally.  Might.

                            Man.  If there's one fugitive whose claim of "can't get a fair trial" has any credence, it's NOT Snowden.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:28:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  what's "pretty transparent" here (7+ / 0-)

                            is that you've entirely run out of valid arguments, and now you're going to turn to inflammatory, ad-hom bullshit about race and class.

                            You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

                            by nota bene on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:39:27 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So no response about the fair jury, lawyers, (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tortmaster

                            judges and appeal?

                            And I've run out of arguments?

                            Oooooookeeeeeeey.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 02:15:44 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your argument that the same people would not (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat, 4kedtongue, stevemb

                            support Snowden were he of some arbitrary racial classification other than white is both asinine and intentionally dishonest.

                            You're talking to the Free Mummia and Free Leonard Pelletier folks right now.

                            And you know it.

                            "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                            by JesseCW on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 12:26:53 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nobody claims the system is biased against white (0+ / 0-)

                            educated/white collar/ educated/ people with money for lawyers until they need to "explain" why Snowden won't face trial.  The lie is that "he won't get justice" instead of the obviously true of "he'd rather not face justice".  

                            And we all know it.  

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 07:08:59 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  JesseCW... (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            JesseCW, TheMomCat, stevemb

                            ...don't you know that the only reason Snowden has become a cause célèbre with white college educated leftists is because the defects in the criminal justice system have gone unchallenged by white college educated leftists when the defendants did not match their racial, socio-economic background?

                            No white college educated leftists have ever railed against the racist application of drug sentencing.
                            No white college educated leftist ever challenged the power of the police when employing 'Stop and Frisk' or racial profiling.
                            No white college educated has ever questioned the validity of the jury system as it acquits whites and convicts people of color unjustly.
                            No white college educated leftist ever lifted a finger, let alone raised their voices, against the racist application of the Death Penalty.

                            It's a filthy, despicable lie, but it is by no means a 'Hail Mary' argument of last resort.  It's simply the logical advancement of an argument which has its roots in the idea that violations of the 1st and 4th amendments in the form of collection, storage, and warrantless search of telephone meta-data of every single American citizen by the government amounts to little more than a White Privilege over-reaction.  yawn.

                            And there is nothing you can say to Inland, who seems hell-bent on DEFENDING the defects of the justice system in this particualr case, which will change his mind, so why bother trying?

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 09:24:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wait, we're talking about Bush? (6+ / 0-)

                            I mean, you obviously care about white men escaping justice, so you must be talking about the refusal to prosecute for torture. Because you hate hypocrisy and are all for the rule of law.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:13:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yeah, I've heard that too. (0+ / 0-)

                            "You can't prosecute My Icon unless Bush and all the banksters and XYZ are prosecuted first".  As if the right wing gets a few get out of jail frees, and then you pick yours.  Any of you Junior Blackstones interested in rule of law picked out the law that Bush would be prosecuted under?  Or is that not important.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:31:13 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're making things up (6+ / 0-)

                            I never said Snowden shouldn't be prosecuted unless Bush is, I said you're a hypocrite and don't actually care about the rule of law. And yes, prosecuting banks for fraud would be great too. I sure see you fighting for that.

                            And he'd be prosecuted for torture. That's still illegal in the US and it's illegal to order torture, which Bush did.

                            Again, not that you care about the law. You care about punishing the little people. God forbid one of them get off for something. Torture thousands and it's a different story altogether.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 02:19:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You seriously don't believe Bush commited (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat, stevemb

                            crimes when he ordered torture?

                            "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                            by JesseCW on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 12:27:51 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And the statute is.... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            jdsnebraska

                            Crimes aren't in the air.  They are defined by statutes.  Got one?  No.  Turns out, the law is pretty short on crimes a president can commit as president.

                            It's really hard to discuss the law with people whose analysis starts at "I hate this guy, let's get him" and ends with "I like this guy, he should get away with it".  

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 06:53:29 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  why are you "pimping" for uprates for a (6+ / 0-)

                        ridiculous comment that was hidden?

                        For our fallen solders who come home from Afghanistan to Dover AF mortuary, "God bless the cause of "The Good War" for which they died" - As if any war can be called Good in its 13th year, America's longest war.

                        by allenjo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:27:43 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  seems we are all taking sides (8+ / 0-)

                      I am on the side that President Obama should pardon Edward Snowden and welcome him into the fold to help correct the abuses of the surveillance state. Perhaps a special cabinet position.

                      You can be on the side of the Obama administration, which has made clear it doesn’t believe the accused have such a right  (in its extrajudicial assassinations, it has further made clear that it doesn’t believe people deserve to be even formally accused of a crime before they are summarily executed).
                      Or you can stand on the side of the “due process” principles that are supposed to make sure the justice system is as fair to defendants as the dissembling political class claims it is.

                      For our fallen solders who come home from Afghanistan to Dover AF mortuary, "God bless the cause of "The Good War" for which they died" - As if any war can be called Good in its 13th year, America's longest war.

                      by allenjo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:26:42 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  What? We're allowed to take sides? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ord avg guy, Tortmaster

                        Then what's with all the HRs and dismissals for putting Snowden in a bad light?  Or are those Freedom HRs?

                        Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                        by Inland on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 01:00:53 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Maybe they're counter-trolling HRs (7+ / 0-)

                          People are tired of it.

                          The same bullshit repeated in every single diary about Snowden.

                          By you and Tortmaster, both of whom, as it turns out, get debunked and rejected time after time.

                          Perhaps if you guys could like, take a hint and just accept the fact that no one is interested in your opinion and are pretty much tired of having to rebut your nonsense over and over and over again, you guys wouldn't be subjected to the indignity of being dismissed and HR'd. Though at this point, however, it's clear neither one of you care much about the "being dismissed" part, given the fact you two are amongst only a handful of people who still maintain their "dissent" with such tenacity, even in the face of overwhelming facts presented to you showing how absurd your arguments are.

                          And I say this as someone who didn't HR you yesterday or Tortmaster in this thread.

                          Since you're so concerned about HRs, perhaps you might ask Tortmaster why he likes running around dropping drive-by, inexplicable, unwarranted HRs on people.

                          By my count, he's tossed at least 18 abusive HRs in the last few months. Perhaps more.  




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 04:28:04 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Heh. "Counter trolling HRs" (0+ / 0-)

                            Which you then define as "no one is interested in your opinion".  

                            You can't even help but admit that you're trying to shut people up by re-defining trolling as "Nah nah nah can't hear you".

                            By my count, he's tossed at least 18 abusive HRs in the last few months. Perhaps more.  
                            Oh, my.  I can't wait to hear what YOU think is abusive.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Fri Jan 24, 2014 at 06:55:36 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

        •  Anne Frank was a fugitive too.... (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Johnny Q, Sandino, SpecialKinFlag, ozsea1

          "legal" and "right" are not synonyms.

          You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

          by nota bene on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:03:29 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Had he stayed in this country he would have (11+ / 0-)

      had all of his evidence taken and destroyed by the government, and he would be held without bail and without communication in administrative segregation.  The material never would have been made public, and the NSA and the Feinsteins of the world would be telling their lies without any evidence of their duplicity and criminality.

      Patriotism may be the last refuge of scoundrels, but religion is assuredly the first.

      by StrayCat on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:45:31 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I think you are mistaking (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, DocGonzo, Johnny Q

      whistleblower and martyr.

    •  It's Still Not Enough (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sandino, Johnny Q, nota bene, AoT

      If Snowden had stopped after disclosing any limited amount, we wouldn't have even the mere talk about reform we have now. And despite his continuing damning disclosures, nothing's changed except some talk.

      Your belief that Snowden should have stayed in the US where the spooks have the greatest reach and impunity really undermines your whole point of view.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 08:32:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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