Skip to main content

View Diary: Government oversight board issues report saying NSA bulk phone calls program is illegal (272 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  hysteria (0+ / 0-)

    The right wing gets its way--with the help of lefties.  The aim is to demonize government--and having us run with the NSA is, for them, even better than the chant --Benghazi!.  Look, the government overstepped its bounds--yet probably few, if anyone, suffered definable damage.  Big money has kept Google and Amazon snooping off the front pages-- and I'm betting many more people are affected by them.  For sure competitors have been hurt by the private information farm we're neglecting.

    Actions speak louder than petitions.

    by melvynny on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:39:47 AM PST

    •  We're talking about private companies (11+ / 0-)

      not just the government. Snowden got all his information from working at a private company. There's no separation between private and public in this.

      And if you think that we need to make people have respect for government then the way to do that is to make government respectable, not to ignore when government does something wrong.

      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

      by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:45:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  emphasis (0+ / 0-)

        We should be the ones emphasizing the data mining by private businesses.  I can foolishly think my vote counts--I am sure I have no say on Google's board of directors.

        Actions speak louder than petitions.

        by melvynny on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:52:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Google can't arrest you (9+ / 0-)

          and you can choose not to use google. I don't use google for searches. The government can arrest me, and has, and I can't just up and move to a different country.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:55:27 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  The government can't arrest you... (0+ / 0-)

            ...with metadata search either. Metadata searches are authorized under reasonable suspicion, not probable cause. That means that any information the NSA finds in a metadata search cannot be used in criminal court.

            •  But they can use those searches to get (7+ / 0-)

              probably cause to arrest you. And this isn't just about metadata. The NSA gathers more than just metadata. They just don't "collect" it so it doesn't count.

              And legal proceedings are only one way the government has of attacking dissidents. Look to MLK if you want more examples.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:29:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  please try to keep up (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              AoT, DeadHead

              you are flatly wrong on the idea that the govt cannot use metadata against American citizens. See here, from August.

              The Drug Enforcement Administration has been the recipient of multiple tips from the NSA. DEA officials in a highly secret office called the Special Operations Division are assigned to handle these incoming tips, according to Reuters. Tips from the NSA are added to a DEA database that includes "intelligence intercepts, wiretaps, informants and a massive database of telephone records." This is problematic because it appears to break down the barrier between foreign counterterrorism investigations and ordinary domestic criminal investigations.

              Because the SOD's work is classified, DEA cases that began as NSA leads can't be seen to have originated from a NSA source.

              So what does the DEA do? It makes up the story of how the agency really came to the case in a process known as "parallel construction." Reuters explains:

                 

              Some defense lawyers and former prosecutors said that using "parallel construction" may be legal to establish probable cause for an arrest. But they said employing the practice as a means of disguising how an investigation began may violate pretrial discovery rules by burying evidence that could prove useful to criminal defendants.
              All the blah blah blah about probable cause is irrelevant. The government is using this shit. Why would they bother to go to such lengths to collect so much information and then not do anything with it?

              You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

              by nota bene on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:37:45 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  And again, these privacy problems (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, Lady Libertine, Johnny Q, DeadHead

          are problems with private companies. This is privatization. If you think private businesses are a big part of the problem then you should be screaming your head off about this.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 06:57:09 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Nope (10+ / 0-)
      probably few, if anyone, suffered definable damage
      The NSA Scandal Will Cost US Tech Companies Tens of Billions

      Then again, destroying some of the jobs that are harder than average to WalMartize is a feature, not a bug, to the governing elites.

      On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

      by stevemb on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:04:11 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  article (0+ / 0-)

        Ah, come on--that article is conjecture and hyperbole.  Claiming this could hurt Google--the most extensive data miner--is obtuse and obscene.  When you travel, who knows where you are--the government or Google?  When you shop, who keeps tabs on you--the government or Amazon?  The left's job is to counterbalance the right---not join forces in government bashing.

        Actions speak louder than petitions.

        by melvynny on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:16:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  The government should never be defended (8+ / 0-)

          just because it's the government. That's foolhardy to the extreme. That's how we get totalitarianism. The government can do a lot wrong and correcting that wrong is the best way to get people to believe in government, not bashing business.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:26:31 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  agreed (0+ / 0-)

            But in this case, the government wrongdoing is less harmful, and deflects attention from the monster in the room.

            Actions speak louder than petitions.

            by melvynny on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 07:56:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You realize that the government has access (5+ / 0-)

              to all that information that google has, right?

              And what is the harm of google having information when they can't arrest me like the government can?

              They government can legally kill you. Google can't. There's no comparison of potential harm.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 08:00:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  realize (0+ / 0-)

                The government doesn't need info to kill you--to harass you--sadly, power corrupts.  I can vote out government--Google owns me.  Those who think avoiding Google also avoids the data mine, are delusional.  I literally received a phone call from my cell provider asking if I had a problem with my internet  landline connection while traveling--they knew where I was staying, how I got there, and my last 3 credit purchases.  And yes, I was having a problem!

                Actions speak louder than petitions.

                by melvynny on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 08:09:00 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  the govt (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT, DeadHead

                not only knows everything that Google knows, it knows everything that Verizon knows, and AT&T, etc etc. It collects all that information in one place that rival companies protect from each other as a matter of course. You can't just avoid using one corporation's services, you have to avoid all of them, which is not practical due to the ubiquity and pervasiveness of electronic communication in the 21st century.

                You WANT me on that server! You NEED me on that server!

                by nota bene on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 12:40:28 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Maybe If You Extend The List, You'll Figure It Out (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Johnny Q, AoT

          When you A, who monitors, the government or Z? (Answer: Both)
          When you B, who monitors, the government or Y? (Answer: Both)
          When you C, who monitors, the government or X? (Answer: Both)
          When you D, who monitors, the government or W? (Answer: Both)

          Continue until you figure out the pattern, and it tells you which single actor is by far the most dangerous.

          On the Internet, nobody knows if you're a dog... but everybody knows if you're a jackass.

          by stevemb on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 08:08:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  You know, the left, which typically does... (13+ / 0-)

      ...support government programs, didn't just start objecting to government surveillance (and related activities) recently. At the time in the '60s and '70s when we were doing so, the claim was made by our foes that very few people had been targeted and the vast majority of Americans were untouched (the underlying theme being that nothing would happen if you didn't do something "wrong"). That's irrelevant. This kind of pervasive surveillance chills dissent. So, sneer at it as "hysteria" if you want, but having personally been one of those targets and having known a few dozen other people in the same boat, I say anybody who isn't alarmed by both what's happening and the potential for worse isn't paying attention.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 09:36:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  history (0+ / 0-)

        I was under surveillance during the Vietnam War--and during a NYC teacher strike in that same era-- so I'm not surprised by this.  I doubt we have ever had a government that didn't do this nasty.  However, private enterprise never had the capability to out spy the gov't.  Screaming NSA hides the new monster master.  

        We're out of the cave, we have to give up some liberties to some institutions--I know the government will always be able to tap me--I don't want Google to have the same "privilege" without us yelling louder at them.

        Actions speak louder than petitions.

        by melvynny on Thu Jan 23, 2014 at 10:13:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site