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View Diary: Should Edward Snowden get the 2014 Nobel Peace Prize? (226 comments)

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    •  No, give it to the guy heading the police state (35+ / 0-)

      Not to the guy who exposed it.

      Giving the Peace Prize to Snowden would be partial penance for the spectacularly bad judgment they showed in giving it to Barack Obama.

      We have always been at war with al Qaeda.

      by Dallasdoc on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 06:26:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Some people think Obama deserved the price while (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CenPhx, dclawyer06, fcvaguy, Dancun74

        Some think he did not deserve it. Some think Snowden or Manning deserve the price while some think they don't.......just really depend on whom you ask:)

      •  When he got the Nobel Prize he had gotten a (17+ / 0-)

        significant arms reduction through the US Senate and enacted into law, spoken up against the Iraq war when that was an unpopular position, and shown a life long interest in reducing nuclear arms (the last btw has continued to be acted on in office). Whatever he did after receiving the prize, the Nobel organization can hardly be expected to read the future.

        (I also think you may need to read a bit more broadly to understand what a "police state" is).



        Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

        by Wee Mama on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 06:42:59 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I'm well aware what a police state is (24+ / 0-)

          A police state engages in a broad, violent national crackdown of protests against the economic ruling class.  It incarcerates a higher proportion of its citizens than almost any nation on earth.  It engages in comprehensive, secret domestic surveillance of its citizens.  It controls the media so disapproved points of view are very hard to hear.  If right-wing, it fuses corporate and government activities and interests to the benefit of both, at the expense of its citizens.  It engages in relentless propaganda to justify its existence and disguise its true nature from its populace.

          Perhaps I'm not the one that needs to read more.

          We have always been at war with al Qaeda.

          by Dallasdoc on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:06:10 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  While I understand this ... (14+ / 0-)
          (I also think you may need to read a bit more broadly to understand what a "police state" is).
          ... quite a few folk should read more widely:

          http://www.forbes.com/...

          Just because we don't regularly see folk dragged from their homes, and "disappeared", does not mean that the tools of a Police State are not in place.

          The above example, plus The Patriot Act gives the US government MORE powers than most police states legally have, even if their application is more subtle.

          One subtlety is the denial of access to effective legal representation for the vast majority of the population. Especially in a country as litigious as this one.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          Who is twigg?

          by twigg on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:06:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Universally accepted definitions are helpful (5+ / 0-)
          A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population. A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.
          The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement. Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.[1]
          http://en.wikipedia.org/...

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:33:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, that's the road we're on. (10+ / 0-)

            It's little solace to agree that we haven't yet reached the end.

            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

            by PhilJD on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:53:17 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  C'mon -- we're permitted... (6+ / 0-)

              ...to gather in fenced-off Free Speech Zones, protected by police in riot gear, which are located miles away from events like the Democratic and Republican National Conventions.

              Funny, I thought the entirety of the United States of America was a Free Speech Zone.  My mistake.

              And then there are those kindly G-men who infiltrate our Peace Group Gatherings to share in our hospitality and good-natured conversations and protest planning.

              And companies which aid the government in spying on us without a warrant are absolved of their complicity and then the laws changed to make their co-operation legal, because al Qaeda.

              They hate us for our Freedoms.

              We're there, PhilJD, delusions of freedom notwithstanding.

              all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

              by 4kedtongue on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:13:50 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  At least you recognize (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ord avg guy, mikidee

              that we're not quite there yet.

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:29:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Well, let's take a look, element by element: (10+ / 0-)
            A police state is a state in which the government exercises rigid and repressive controls over the social, economic, and political life of the population.
            Social life?  Monitoring is control, even if people previously did not realize it. Free travel ended when Americans were required to prove identity in order to travel by any means they chose.

            Economic life?  We've just seen the vast majority of all profits and increase in income for the past 5 years to to 1% of our population. Do you think the other 99% have uncontrolled access to economic means?

            Political life? Have you tried to protest a president, particularly those of the Republican variety?  How do you like those "Free Speech Zones" located blocks away and over a hill, where no one - not a single person, including the president or the public - will see the "protest"?

            Taken another way: When was the last time we were permitted to vote for a president who was not in the pocket of large corporations and Wall Street?

            A police state typically exhibits elements of totalitarianism and social control, and there is usually little or no distinction between the law and the exercise of political power by the executive.
            Perhaps you missed Bush's "indefinite detentions" and Guantanamo Bay's prisons holding people -- location chosen specifically for this purpose -- "beyond the law."

            Perhaps you've missed Obama's death sentences by decree for people in other lands, including US citizens and their children.

            Perhaps you've missed the blatant criminality on Wall Street and the US Justice Department turning a blind eye, while the revolving door between the Obama administration and Wall Street has been spinning off its hinges?

            The inhabitants of a police state experience restrictions on their mobility, and on their freedom to express or communicate political or other views, which are subject to police monitoring or enforcement.
            Monitoring and enforcement?  NSA gathers all communications. Need to know more?  NSA has shared that information with other governmental agencies for law enforcement purposes. The IRS monitors Facebook and other social media. etc, etc, etc.

            Restrictions on mobility? Have you heard of the Do Not Fly List?  Impossible to get off of it. Impossible to contact anyone to deal with it. Other points already addressed.

            Political control may be exerted by means of a secret police force which operates outside the boundaries normally imposed by a constitutional state.
            NSA is clearly operating outside the bounds of our Constitution as the president's own commission and a follow-up by a governmental watchdog agency have declared. And they are doing it with no results in the "war on terruhhh."   NSA data is routinely shared with DEA, FBI, CIA and other agencies.

            Department of Homeland Security coordinated nationwide law enforcement shutdown of Occupy protests.  

            Department of Homeland Security bursts into a movie theater to detain and question a man wearing "Google Glass."  

            Department of Homeland Security runs checkpoints throughout the nation, 100 miles from any border covering 80+% of the US population.  

            Department of Homeland Security routinely seizes innocent travelers' laptops and other electronic devices without cause, justification or reason. If they are ever returned, they are damaged or destroyed.

            Department of Homeland Security "security teams" perform surprise mandatory searches of belongings and persons at bus terminals and other transportation hubs, outside the airports where everyone thinks is their only site of operation. (Ever heard of the Fourth Amendment?  Gone.)

            If you don't believe any of those, or are simply unaware, Google is your friend.  Oh, by the way, as you Google those, your activity is being recorded and stored by the National "Security" Agency.

            Enjoy!

            "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

            by YucatanMan on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 09:11:25 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There are people and studies which support you (0+ / 0-)

              For example:

              Alex Jones promotes this story where a group called CryptoHippie ranks the US as #6 in the world amongst police states:

              http://www.prisonplanet.com/...

              And then Business Insider says US is #43:

              http://www.businessinsider.com/...

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:48:37 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Oh, please. You're siding with Business Insider on (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheMomCat, PhilJD, DeadHead, Dallasdoc

                the issue of whether we're sliding toward a CORPORATIST police state? OMFG.

                And just because Alex Jones happens to hate Obama and might be right for the wrong reasons (e.g., delusionally think that the police state is here because his guns might be taken away), doesn't mean that in reality it ain't happening.

                "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                by Kombema on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 12:37:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm siding with Business Insider???? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Wee Mama

                  You misread my post. I provided two examples. I don't support one study or another because its not an issue I spend much time worrying about. If you bothered to google, you'll find others. Here's another that puts the US at #32.

                  http://www.bloomberg.com/...

                  Here's a more qualitative approach by Discovery News:

                  10 signs you're in a police state:

                  Your government puts protesters in penal colonies

                  Your leader has been president for several decades

                  Your most famous national artist disappears

                  Your 'democracy' excludes 90 percent of your citizens

                  Your local news is provided by the state

                  Your Internet access is curiously limited

                  Your wife is a government informer

                  Your country is on this list

                  Your government has cameras everywhere

                  Your government is monitoring your Internet use

                  http://news.discovery.com/...

                  KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                  by fcvaguy on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 01:11:12 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  No... the arms reduction thing came later (9+ / 0-)

          The deadline for nominations in '09 was less than two weeks after Obama was sworn into office, by which time he had done nothing of any significance to earn a Nobel.  Before he had been in office a week, drone bombing took place (don't remember now if that was in Pakistan or Yemen, but it was the weekend after inauguration day, so Obama was not even in office a full week when he resumed Dumbya's wars).

          Essentially, Obama got the Nobel for his pre-election day victory tour around the planet like he had already won, and for NOT being Dumbya, the most loathed man on the planet, or his sidekick, Dickie, the second most loathed man on the planet.

          The 2009 Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to U.S. President Barack Obama for his "extraordinary efforts" to strengthen international diplomacy and cooperation between peoples.[1] The Norwegian Nobel Committee announced the award on October 9, 2009, citing Obama's promotion of nuclear nonproliferation[2] and a "new climate" in international relations fostered by Obama, especially in reaching out to the Muslim world.[3][4]

          The Nobel Committee's decision drew mixed reactions from US commentators and editorial writers across the political spectrum, as well as from the rest of the world.

          Obama accepted the prize in Oslo on December 10, 2009. In a 36-minute speech, he discussed the tensions between war and peace and the idea of a "just war"[5] saying, "perhaps the most profound issue surrounding my receipt of this prize is the fact that I am the Commander-in-Chief of the military of a nation in the midst of two wars."[6]

          Obama is the fourth US president to have been awarded a Nobel Prize (after Theodore Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson and Jimmy Carter, with Vice President Al Gore also being a recipient, with Carter and Gore's honors happening after leaving office).
          ~~~~~~~~~~
          Obama was the first U.S. president to receive the award during his first year in office (at eight and a half months, after being nominated less than two weeks in office), although several other world leaders were awarded in the year following their election to national office, including Óscar Arias (1987)[12] and Aung San Suu Kyi (1991).[13]

          New START (Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty) (Russian: СНВ-III, SNV-III) is a nuclear arms reduction treaty between the United States of America and the Russian Federation with the formal name of Measures for the Further Reduction and Limitation of Strategic Offensive Arms. It was signed on 8 April 2010 in Prague,[3][4] and, after ratification,[5][6] entered into force on 5 February 2011. [1] It is expected to last at least until 2021.

          New START replaced the Treaty of Moscow (SORT), which was due to expire in December 2012. In terms of name, it is a follow-up to the START I treaty, which expired in December 2009, the proposed START II treaty, which never entered into force, and the START III treaty, for which negotiations were never concluded.

          Under terms of the treaty, the number of strategic nuclear missile launchers will be reduced by half. A new inspection and verification regime will be established, replacing the SORT mechanism. It does not limit the number of operationally inactive stockpiled nuclear warheads that remain in the high thousands in both the Russian and American inventories.[7]
          [My bold.]

          I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

          by NonnyO on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:50:50 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  As a freshman senator, Obama got an arms reduction (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            NonnyO

            through, cosponsored with Lugar IIRC. He has continued to work effectively to reduce nuclear arms.



            Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

            by Wee Mama on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:07:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Linky? (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kombema, DeadHead, Dallasdoc

              It doesn't seem to have been noted as one of the reasons he won the Nobel Peace Prize.

              Obama had never become more than a freshman Senator by the time he declared his presidential candidacy; naïveté and inexperience remain his biggest weaknesses.  He never had any gravitas or clout like any of the elder statesmen - e.g., LBJ who, after many years in the Senate, could twist arms and kick ass to get things done - Medicare and Civil Rights are probably the two most famous accomplishments when he was prez - in spite of the idiotic Vietnam war that remains a stain on his reputation..., or Bernie Sanders who is a fabulous elder statesman who always works for the people.

              I'm sick of attempts to steer this nation from principles evolved in The Age of Reason to hallucinations derived from illiterate herdsmen. ~ Crashing Vor

              by NonnyO on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:45:38 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  The Nobel was purely wishful thinking by naive (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                PhilJD, NonnyO, Dallasdoc

                Europeans who had never really known that someone like Obama could be a corporatist conservative, neo-liberal hawk on most issues. Their bad.

                That said, if he stands his ground on Iranian negotiations, I'll give him proper credit for avoiding another pointless, destructive GD war in the Middle East. He might finally earn part of that Nobel yet, if so.

                "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                by Kombema on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 12:41:16 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  The Obama-Lugar bill, listed among his other (0+ / 0-)

                legislative work, can be found here.

                From the Nobel citation:

                The Committee has attached special importance to Obama's vision of and work for a world without nuclear weapons.
                It is something he began thinking about as an undergraduate and taking stands on almost from the beginning of his political career. He has followed up as president by multiple examples of helping countries get rid of their nuclear weapons. Obama has gone further than any previous president to negotiate with Iran and opened up the prospect of their ending their quest for nuclear weapons.



                Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

                by Wee Mama on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 03:30:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

      •  When all you have is a hammer (0+ / 0-)

        I guess every user looks like a nail.

        The user stated a declarative opinion and you shat all over this person with a barrage of straw-man laden persiflage. Nowhere did anyone state Obama (or anyone else) deserved the distinction. You're not too far removed from the Monty Python argument sketch.

      •  Is there a Nobel for Hyperbole? (5+ / 0-)

        Cuz I'd like to nominate everyone who says we live in a police state.  First prize: an eyeopening trip to every country Snowden has fled to, to date.

        Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

        by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:05:35 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  And I'd like to introduce you (12+ / 0-)

          to Barrett Brown!

          And maybe a few Occupy protesters.

          I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
          but I fear we will remain Democrats.

          Who is twigg?

          by twigg on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:09:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Go right ahead. And you can meet one, too. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueyedace2, ord avg guy

            You find me a single Occupy participant who left the movement because of this alleged violent crackdown.  In the meantime, you can meet Max Bean.

            One of them, Max Bean, a talkative New York City teacher given to the sorts of in-depth cultural analyses you might expect of a Brown graduate, which he is, says he spent 12 to 15 hours a day, seven days a week, doing work for the movement last fall. This winter he sent a letter to about 60 other occupiers announcing his departure. A few days after the Midtown meeting, he locked up his bike and sat down on the steps of Union Square to talk about his reasons for dropping out.

            He was initially drawn to movement, he said, when he saw a few people having a heated discussion about OWS right there on the steps of Union Square, and came to the conclusion that the movement could help people like these really listen to each other, something he hadn’t seen very often in the streets of New York. In the park, “we were trying to build a different kind of culture,” he said. “It was a dysfunctional community, it was a fucking mess, but I think that was a worthwhile and interesting goal.” After the park was cleared out, many activists shifted their energies to conventional protest tactics like rallies and sit-ins. “If you want to be very focused and organized, then those tactics might make sense,” he said, “but we weren’t any of those things.”

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

            You know, in my town, Occupy had a room reserved for the weekly meeting at the public library.

            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:20:35 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Doubtless Scott Olsen (10+ / 0-)

              would appreciate such a tolerant society.

              I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
              but I fear we will remain Democrats.

              Who is twigg?

              by twigg on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:22:34 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Still looking for that nationwide crackdown. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ord avg guy

                That, it would seem to me, is the difference between police abuse in specific cases and a police state.  Wouldn't you agree?  

                Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:31:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No, I don't agree (6+ / 0-)

                  mainly because I don't see a concerted effort to crack down on the "police abuse".

                  If anything, the abuses are spreading and the local police forces are being steadily militarized.

                  I hope that the quality of debate will improve,
                  but I fear we will remain Democrats.

                  Who is twigg?

                  by twigg on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:33:51 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You might want to ask Scott Olsen about that. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ord avg guy

                    Now that he's settled his suit with the City of Oakland

                    http://www.mercurynews.com/...

                    and forty four Oakland police officers have been disciplined for treatment of Occupy protesters

                    http://www.mercurynews.com/...

                    And no, I'm not even going to ask about "militarized".  I know it's the wearing of scary looking helmets and body armor.  If that's being militarized, then every hocky goalie is an enlisted man.

                    Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                    by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:24:32 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What about all of those... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Kombema, TheMomCat, PhilJD

                      armored vehicles of which we've been seeing more and more?

                      Those are perfectly normal, I suppose.




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:34:03 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  As always, blame the GOP. The armor is needed (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        DeadHead, TheMomCat

                        as protection against potholes because the tea-monsters won't appropriate funds for road repair.

                        America may be crumbling into despair and despotism, but it's all so much simpler when you know without thinking whose fault it is.

                        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                        by PhilJD on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 12:59:21 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  I've never seen one. (0+ / 0-)

                        I spend a lot of time living in the real world, going about my business, and I've never seen one deployed.

                        Well, I take that back.  I saw them in Chile in 1986.  

                        So I suspect they aren't perfectly normal in the US.  

                        Not that rolling one out after a terror attack doesn't stop people from stating that "this is what a police state looks like".  As if death and mayhem from bombs means that the cops should assume that there's nothing to be scared of.  After all, the only scary things in the world are the police state we imagine.  

                        Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                        by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 02:43:54 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Good for you. (4+ / 0-)

                          Your view of the world is the only one that counts, of course.

                          Meanwhile, the ALCU thinks there might be a problem.

                          I'll take their word over yours any day of the week.




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 03:46:32 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)
                            What about all of those... (3+ / 0-)

                            armored vehicles of which we've been seeing more and more

                            Silly me. I thought that when you say "we've been seeing more and more", you might have actually seen, you know, one.  

                            Because when you go off with this sort of tiff:

                            Deny it all you want, but your incessant trolling of these diaries, trying to convince people they aren't seeing what they're seeing, is irritating as fuck
                            I'd assume that you wouldn't quickly admit that, in fact, you're not seeing it either.

                            Well, whatever.  I'm sure the ACLU thinks you're the peaches, too.  

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 04:04:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You go right ahead and play semantic games. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat

                            Meanwhile, the rest of the world will pretend you really are smart enough to recognize the word "we" being used in the collective sense, and cut you a little slack. Everyone has a bad day once in awhile.

                            I have seen a bunch of these up close, by the way.

                            While they were being welded, assembled, and driven around on a test track, in fact.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:11:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  ON A TEST TRACK! (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm sure you thought "this is what a police state's test track looks like".  

                            Meanwhile, the rest of the world will pretend you really are smart enough to recognize the word "we" being used in the collective sense,
                            Oh.

                            Link for all the stuff you never saw yourself?

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:16:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  So the govt cracks down on Occupy & you blame (14+ / 0-)

              Occupy for being ineffective.

              Wow.

              look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

              by FishOutofWater on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:32:53 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Go argue with Occupy's previous participants. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ord avg guy

                I haven't heard about a single protester who blamed "government crackdown" on Occupy losing steam.

                On the other hand, I quote Occupy participants themselves about how Occupy lost steam.  

                Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 08:07:59 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  You don't know squat about Occupy, then. (5+ / 0-)

                  I'm sure you think Bloomberg's handling of Occupy and the media was restrained and Constitutional.

                  "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                  by Kombema on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 12:43:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'll rely on people you have to admit know squat. (0+ / 0-)

                    Have you found anyone who left Occupy because of this supposed crackdown?  Got a name?  

                    I'll give you until 10:00 a.m. CST to find one.

                    Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                    by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 02:40:44 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Gee, let's go track down the exit poll results. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Dallasdoc, TheMomCat

                      I'm sure one was conducted, and that your demand for proof will be met well-before your imposed deadline.




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 04:01:27 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Or use the google, like I did to find the Occupy (0+ / 0-)

                        vets who left for other reasons.

                         I found the quote from Max in ten seconds.  And it wasn't even the article I was looking for.  There are better ones.

                        You have til Monday.   Better get busy.

                        Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                        by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 04:07:30 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You're confused (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          TheMomCat, Kombema

                          You're recklessly imposing the same deadline on the different people for different reasons.

                          You also appear to have the challenger-challenged thing reversed.

                          Where's your links from Google?

                          I'm surprised you haven't learned how to post one in a comment yet. You've been here since 2005. There really isn't any excuse, Inland.




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:20:27 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                    •  I know people personally who were intimidated by (0+ / 0-)

                      Bloomberg's Gestapo tactics, and who chose to avoid mass arrest for peaceful First Amendment protests. You're being either obtuse or disingenuous here.

                      "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

                      by Kombema on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 06:59:46 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  it's classic 'blame the victim' stuff Inland's (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DeadHead, Kombema, TheMomCat, Dallasdoc

                spouting here...

                "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                by poligirl on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:08:43 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  & Roger Schuler who remains in prison (7+ / 0-)

            for his blogging. Yes, Roger may be paranoid, but Alabama Republicans in power really are out to get him.

            look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

            by FishOutofWater on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:27:48 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  OMFG I WANT THIS PRIZE (8+ / 0-)

          MUST HAVE HONG KONG BUBBLE TEA!!!!

           photo CafedeCoral_BubbleTea_zpsfb555096.jpg

          This USA is a police state!
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          Do I win?????

          Tyrion Lannister: "It's not easy being drunk all the time. Everyone would do it if it were easy."

          by psychodrew on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:16:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  You're right! We should wait until America IS (14+ / 0-)

          a full-blown, no-holds-barred, unambiguous police state before saying anything at all about the road we're on.

          That should work out well.

          When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

          by PhilJD on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:21:11 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Heh. Bloggers are funny. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            blueyedace2, closerange, ord avg guy

            The ones whose only tool is hyperbole somehow think that falsely calling the US a police state somehow stops the US from becoming a police state.  Next for Phil:

            We're OVERRUN WITH TIGERS!  

            I don't see any tigers.

            Oh, I bet you'd like to wait until they eat us!

            BTW, What's a another term for a half blown, holds barred, ambiguous police state? Not a police state.  I haven't seen anything so silly since the "inverted totalitarianism", which is totalitarianism except being the opposite.

            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 07:29:32 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  If the GOP were in power, and nothing else (10+ / 0-)

              was different at all, I doubt you would be so sanguine. Neither about the ongoing and increasing threats to privacy and the rule of law nor about anything else. You would join the struggle. Probably you did exactly that during the Bush years.

              Now though, you and Pollyanna trip blithely hand and hand through the wreckage of the 4th Amendment. Only the scary tea-monsters keep America from being the Best of All Possible Worlds. It's all about Team D for you; actual policies seemingly mean little or nothing.

              That's a contemptible abrogation of your responsibility as a citizen.

              When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

              by PhilJD on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 08:17:06 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I really don't care to hear your guesses about me. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                closerange, ord avg guy

                I really don't care to address your series of strawmen.  I'm pretty open to giving my actual views to people who aren't busy arguing with false constructs.  Go read them.  Or not.

                actual policies seemingly mean little or nothing.
                Says the guy who somehow defends the characterization of a police state based on policies that aren't there.

                I suppose I should be contemptuous of you, since you've managed to twist yourself into a pretzel that requires a denunciation of Team D to prove my deep concern and purity.  But instead, I'll just be happy that the only thing you can find for your condemnation is stuff that hasn't happened and a police state that doesn't exist.  That means reality is stumbling along nicely.

                Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 08:26:10 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Of course you don't want to hear... (7+ / 0-)

                  guesses about you. Perfectly understandable.

                  How about removing the guesswork, then?

                  What was your position on this surveillance/NSA stuff back in the Bush years? I've been quite curious about that, I must say.

                  It was before my time on this site, and you've been here since 2005, so surely you must've weighed-in at least a little bit on what went down wrt to the NSA back when Bush was trampling all over the Constitution, seeing how prolific a contrarian you've been in these diaries related to the surveillance/NSA issue and, of course, Snowden himself, these days.

                  Any thoughts?




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:23:47 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Wait a minute (4+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DeadHead, Kombema, TheMomCat, Dallasdoc

                    are you suggesting that the vaunted Inland may have held a different opinion when there was a republican in office?

                    Victim of the system~Bob Marley

                    by LaEscapee on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:35:12 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  He'll say no. Because if he were to admit to (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      ord avg guy

                      suggesting anything, someone would ask him to prove it.  

                      He'd rather just drop the insinuation and let people who don't read carefully presume it than prove it.

                      Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                      by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:38:14 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I think (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        DeadHead, Kombema, TheMomCat, Dallasdoc

                        you might want to stop now

                        Victim of the system~Bob Marley

                        by LaEscapee on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:40:16 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Looking for Deadhead's response to you. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          ord avg guy

                          But you aren't.  You know I'm right.

                          Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                          by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:42:42 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I'll give him a little time (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead, TheMomCat

                            maybe you should use the search function while I wait

                            Victim of the system~Bob Marley

                            by LaEscapee on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:51:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I've given him to 10:00 CST on Monday. (0+ / 0-)

                            But of course, every time he appears I'm going to ask him how it's going.  Just to get rid of him and his disingenuous "questions".

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 02:30:09 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Don't worry. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Dallasdoc, TheMomCat

                            You won't need request a progress report.

                            There was nothing disingenuous about my question. It was quite straightforward:

                            What was your position on this surveillance/NSA stuff back in the Bush years?
                            Unlike your refusal to answer it, of course.

                            Have you made any headway, yet?




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 04:24:47 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, I've ridiculed "Surveillance/NSA stuff" (0+ / 0-)

                            and shown you've got no interest in proving accusations against me. But making you look bad isn't progress. It's just easy.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 04:56:46 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not overly concerned... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat

                            about whether or not you think you're making me "look bad."

                            I'm quite aware of your standard responses by now.

                            When you find yourself in a pickle, you try to make it look like your opponent is losing the argument, while portraying yourself as being the one with the upper hand, when in actuality it's quite the opposite.

                            I've seen you do it on countless occasions. You're too predictable, nowadays, Inland.

                            Enough about you, let's talk about me. What was it that I supposedly "accused" you of, exactly?

                            I can better address this "proof" thing if you'd clarify that for me, first.

                            Thanks.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:54:06 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  Wrong. I'd say 'yes.' (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        TheMomCat

                        And your response would be what, then?




                        Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                        by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:49:26 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Uhhhh.....prove it? (0+ / 0-)

                          Man, you really don't read well, do you.

                          Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                          by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 02:28:58 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I read fine... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            LaEscapee, TheMomCat

                            I'm just waiting for you to state what, exactly, in my comment needs to be substantiated.

                            Spell it out for me, please. I want something concrete.

                            You fabricated the insinuation in the first place.

                            I'm humoring you.

                            So, what do you want me to prove?




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 04:35:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Remember the proposition (0+ / 0-)

                            You just answered with a "yes"?

                            If not, use those reading skills.  Or not.  I know you're looking for excuses to keep me from ridiculing you for making accusations you don't even try to back up.  It won't work.  I'm laughing at you already.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 04:52:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Please control your cackling for a moment... (7+ / 0-)

                            Since you're too lazy to type it out for the record, I'll help you out:

                            Wait a minute

                            are you suggesting that the vaunted Inland may have held a different opinion when there was a republican in office?

                            by LaEscapee on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:35:12 AM PST

                            That one is, indeed the one to which I answered 'yes.'

                            That's hardly an accusation. That was me answering 'yes' to the comment because you decided to answer 'No' on my behalf before I got a chance to answer for myself.

                            Remember, I pretty much do the opposite of whatever you do, especially when you choose to represent me without my consent.

                            Given the fact I didn't technically accuse you of anything (I know how you love playing semantic games), perhaps you'd like to tell readers just how consistently you took the side of the NSA back in the Bush days, like you do now. Because comments like this tend to give a different impression:

                            The illegality of the NSA program

                            is, IMO, a no brainer.

                            The problem is that there's nobody with standing to complain in a court, until somebody accused with illegal obtained evidence is able to get past the State Secrets trump card and test the issue. By that time, there will be a file with the name of every democrat in the White House.

                            It's one of those areas that it would be nice if Congress someone gave a shit about illegality even before a court ruling, which is back to my theme.

                            by Inland on Fri Jun 30, 2006 at 07:42:47 AM PDT

                            Or perhaps you can correct my misconception by telling me exactly how the program you considered illegal back then differs from those we've come to learn about via Snowden, in terms of real-world consequences.

                            Hopefully the differences you'll cite will be significant enough to justify all the nonsensical, semantic nitpicking you've done in so many of these diaries, which have resulted in pretty much everyone else otherwise trying to converse on the topic at hand dismissing your efforts as trolling.

                            Frankly, I'm surprised you've been so persistently contrarian about this, considering you at one time wanted to wait for the next president (which would be Obama), because we couldn't make any changes without knowing what exactly was done, sort of like what Snowden's actions helped reveal.

                            Besides, the can was kicked down the road, wasn't it?

                            There, I've given you the basis for my original question.

                            Ball's in your court.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:50:05 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hoist by his own petard? lol. so he was against it (6+ / 0-)

                            before he was for it? Priceless.

                            "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." Edward R. Murrow

                            by temptxan on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 06:05:07 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Hmmm - (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Inland

                            I assume you are aware of the FISA Amendments Act of 2008, which was extended in late 2012 and is now scheduled to expire in 2017? I also assume you know those amendments were enacted by Congress, in large part, as a response to the exposure in 2005 of the Bush Administration's warrant-less wiretapping.

                            To paraphrase, VP Biden, the difference between what the NSA was doing from 2001 - 2007 pursuant to an executive order that bypassed the FISC and what it has been doing pursuant to the FAA is a big fucking deal unless, of course, you don't consider the concept of separation of powers significant ....

                             

                            Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

                            by mikidee on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 07:53:57 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  um (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, DeadHead

                            Did you forget to sign back in as inland?

                            Because I don't see how walking into a dead thread and answering in place of inland could be anything else.  It's not like the hiddens drew you here.  

                            "It rubs the lotion on its skin" is not effective coalition building.

                            by Nada Lemming on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 08:59:32 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I'm not answering for Inland. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Inland

                            What drew me here (back from yesterday) is was the implication in DeadHead's argument that there's no difference between what the NSA was doing in 2005 and what it is doing now. That's just not accurate.

                            If someone is going to throw an ad hominem tu quoque at someone else it would help if there really were an inconsistency ....

                            Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

                            by mikidee on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 09:28:21 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  lol (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, DeadHead

                            So the same behavior but multiplied x a gazillion with RETROACTIVE IMMUNITY thrown in for good measure is A-OK now?  You realize that congress de-funded and banned Total Information Awareness under Bush, but Obama changed the name and expanded it to apolyptic levels?  You do realize in order not to throw Bush in jail they needed to abuse the laws of physics, and the same people who are OK with this now were howling about it then, right?  Like inland?  Why don't you let him parse this himself, mkay?

                            You kill me.  Literally.  

                            "It rubs the lotion on its skin" is not effective coalition building.

                            by Nada Lemming on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 10:08:59 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Glad I can help. nt (0+ / 0-)

                            Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

                            by mikidee on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 10:29:51 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Heh. Thought you could pull a fast one? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikidee

                            What kind of doof actually thinks the Bush admin and Obama admin programs were the same, so that criticizing one means criticizing both, equally, the same way?

                            Not me.  I knew that someone would have to provide the education.  

                            But I didn't know who would get so pissed off about it.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:12:22 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So it's different? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead

                            Other than changing the name of the program (and cough the president), how is it different?

                            "It rubs the lotion on its skin" is not effective coalition building.

                            by Nada Lemming on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:21:42 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As you've been told. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikidee

                            The difference is that Bush's programs were enacted under his supposed Article II,  Commander in Chief power.

                            Not pursuant to statute, and FISA court order.

                            If you read my diary, you can see how I discuss how the SCt's ruling in Hamden required Bush to go to congress for authorization.  That's the diary.  

                            Obama's got that authorization.

                            Amazing.  You've got a real life example of a power grab by a president to enact surveillance on his own, without congress or  courts...and you forgot.  Hm.   I guess that surveillance only leads to Skynet and a Stasi and a Police state when it's not Bush doing it pursuant to his solitary say so.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:43:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Amazing (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead

                            So right here I am talking about how congress forbade TIA and defunded it, and you are back to the "lets violate the space time continuum" act.  Do you do this naturally?  Or is making arguments that your opponent isn't talking about a skill you learned somewhere?

                            "It rubs the lotion on its skin" is not effective coalition building.

                            by Nada Lemming on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:51:25 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Oh. You're changing the subject. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikidee

                            My diary, and my comments, were about Bush acting without a statute from Congress and abusing his supposed Article II power.

                            Deadhead, not knowing that and not reading the diary attached to my comment, thought that they were about something else and that I was being inconsistent.

                            And you'd  LIKE it to be about something else, namely, twhether the surveillance techniques are the same.  That wasn't really my concern then.  If you want to change the subject from DeadHead's silliness to that, write your own diary.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:58:41 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You brought up a diary. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            DeadHead, TheMomCat

                            it wasn'tt the subject except in your parallel reality.

                            I changed nothing.  Your move.  Will you address my point or will we be playing calvinball?

                            "It rubs the lotion on its skin" is not effective coalition building.

                            by Nada Lemming on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:33:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, not in a dead thread. I just popped in (0+ / 0-)

                            to demonstrate deadhead's failure.  That's done.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 05:40:59 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think deadhead did a great job pointing out your (0+ / 0-)

                            obvious hypocrisy but hey justify away. It's fun to watch.

                            "A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." Edward R. Murrow

                            by temptxan on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 12:32:23 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  And if anyone read my diary (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikidee
                            The Supreme Court ruled in Hamdan that the President needs express Congressional authorization for his processes at Gitmo.  So to Congress he will go.  

                            But will Congress take this opportunity to have a considered debate to consider the proper course of action in the War on Terror, defined in practice as whatever it is Bush is doing openly or secretly?
                            .

                            It's true that as a matter of PRINCIPLE Bush does not ask Congress for anything he can take, whether authority, or appropriations.  Any refutation of that principle is good news.

                            Bush already lost on that principle when Justice O'Connor opined that "war" does not give the president a "blank check". See Breyer's concurring opinion.

                            The Supreme Court reaffirms in Hamdan that the mere fact of war itself does not give the president power to ignore statutes and international law

                            There's a little difference between Bush claiming authority as the War President and all three branches approving as they do now.  And a not careful reading shows my concern was just that.
                             

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:01:56 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Wow, look at the accusations roll out. (0+ / 0-)

                            But witch hunts are like that, I suppose.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:54:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  yeah, they made it pretty much legal. so it's (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Nada Lemming, DeadHead

                            not that the behavior was abhorrent in the first place, it's just that it was illegal...

                            sigh....

                            "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 10:25:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Bingo. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Inland
                            yeah, they made it pretty much legal.
                            That was my point.

                            Although I'm not conceding the legality of meta-data collections.

                            But yeah - and especially in the context of Inland's diary - there's a BFD between what the NSA was doing in 2005 and what it is doing today.

                             

                            Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

                            by mikidee on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 10:36:49 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right (0+ / 0-)

                            Now it's worth his incessant trolling of the discussions in other people's diaires, whereas before it wasn't.

                            In other words, if Bush was president right now, he'd still be trolling everyone's diaries, correct?




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 09:57:31 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Shhhhh...he doesn't know. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            mikidee

                            He's bought the hype that everything is the same.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 02:09:08 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's what I hate about the (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Inland

                            Sux/Rox commentariat here. IMNSHO, the history behind FISA, as amended, is essential to an intellectually honest discussion of the issues implicated by Snowden's disclosure.

                            The hype surrounding Snowden/NSA reminds me of 1990 and the beginning of the Persian Gulf War. I was downtown St. Paul after work in a bar with a large screen teevee tuned to CNN  showing live feed of tracers over Baghdad. A bar regular had the remote and would raise and lower the volume on the teevee apropos of absolutely nothing. When he turned the volume up the crowd hushed and became transfixed by the tracers on the teevee. When he turned the volume down the crowd resumed its bullshit pontificating about "war." AFAIK the drunk with the remote and I were the only vets in the bar ....

                            That's how hype operates - it attracts attention to itself apropos of nothing but noise.

                            Out with the gloomage - in with the plumage!

                            by mikidee on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:55:16 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  The purpose of my exchange with Inland... (0+ / 0-)

                            Was to try to figure out why he feels all we've learned about the NSA via Snowden is insignificant enough in comparison as to justify his frequent disruption of NSA-related diaries.

                            Since you decided to weigh-in, perhaps you can answer that part for him.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 09:52:28 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  :o !!!!! o. m. g. nice find! nt (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            PhilJD, Nada Lemming, DeadHead

                            "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                            by poligirl on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 08:25:41 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                  •  Heh. Pretending to solicit my opinions now? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ord avg guy

                    My thought is, that you like to waste people's time with research projects you could just as easily do yourself, or that you can insinuate that I've changed positions if I refuse.

                    What everyone knows is that your request for my opinions is a lie, since this is your comment:

                    Perhaps if you guys could like, take a hint and just accept the fact that no one is interested in your opinion and are pretty much tired of having to rebut your nonsense over and over and over again, you guys wouldn't be subjected to the indignity of being dismissed and HR'd. Though at this point, however, it's clear neither one of you care much about the "being dismissed" part, given the fact you two are amongst only a handful of people who still maintain their "dissent" with such tenacity, even in the face of overwhelming facts presented to you showing how absurd your arguments are.
                    But hey, if you really want to know about the opinions I must have posted here six years ago on (and this is precious) "NSA/Surveillance stuff",  you can research it as easily as I can.  Looking forward to your report on whether I meet the same standards of consistency that you just exhibited.  

                    Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                    by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:36:49 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  No, I'm not interested in your opinions because... (8+ / 0-)

                      I find value in them. I'm interested your previous opinion on this issue because I want to confirm my long-held suspicion that you are, indeed, a bad-faith actor.

                      So, are you going to continue to deflect, or answer the question?




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 11:47:46 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Haven't you compiled your dossier on me yet? (0+ / 0-)
                        I'm interested your previous opinion on this issue because I want to confirm my long-held suspicion that you are, indeed, a bad-faith actor.
                        I'm sure you want to find some reason to post hoc justify your harassment of me....but you know you won't find it.

                        Nonetheless, to prove that you either have no intention of doing anything but voicing "suspicions", because you don't care if it's true or not, I'll give you a couple of days to put up or shut up.

                        All my comments and diaries are black and white for anyone to see.  The site has a search function.  And you have tons of time on your hands.  

                        Shall we discuss the results of your research into my activities at, say, 10:00 a.m. Monday?  That way, there's time to get the info into the hands of the HUAC.

                        Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                        by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 02:25:23 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Oh, okay. (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          TheMomCat

                          Now you're getting "harassed" because I'm asking you an uncomfortable question that you don't want to answer.

                          That makes sense.

                          Nevermind your endlessly circular bullshit that you've now successfully unleashed upon YET ANOTHER thread.

                          Yes, your comments are there in black and white. That's one tool available to us here that allows us to help get a feel for others with whom we interact, since we usually have no other way of doing so.

                          You keep fucking up these diaries with the same line of bullshit. Over and over. Yet somehow, in your world, people shouldn't be curious as to why someone would so relentlessly troll these diaries. Someone who, as it turns out, didn't do the same thing, at least not as vociferously, back when similar issues came up under Bush.

                          Why the inconsistency, Inland? What's different now?

                          You're long overdue for having someone ask you these questions.

                          I'm volunteering to be that someone.

                          I've been reading old diaries from the late Bush years because they're relevant to this discussion currently taking place on the site. Almost the same issues. Your username appears in the comments of some of those diaries, and in light of your prolific participation these days, those old comments of yours practically jump off the page.

                          I can post a few right now, if you want.




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 05:18:23 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Uh huh. (0+ / 0-)
                            Someone who, as it turns out, didn't do the same thing, at least not as vociferously, back when similar issues came up under Bush.
                            This is the accusation that you've been challenged to prove and declined.

                            I guess it's easier to just pretend that someone has actually proved it somewhere...or even tried to prove it somewhere.  Just add "as it turns out" and you'll say anything.  Wonder who's going to be fooled by that.

                            Now you're getting "harassed" because I'm asking you an uncomfortable question that you don't want to answer.
                            Actually, as it turns out, it might be the making up part.  The false insinuation part.  The obsessively commenting to me part.  The taking it upon yourself to be obnoxious to me part.    
                            Nevermind your endlessly circular bullshit that you've now successfully unleashed upon YET ANOTHER thread.
                            And another diary, where between you and me, I'm the only one to actually make a substantive post, and you're the one making dozens and dozens of posts with no other purpose but to drive people out.

                            I mean, you're so invested in being nothing but a substanceless insulting police dog you called out ord avg guy for just RECCING MY COMMENT.  

                            You know, there's one easy way to clear out diaries of bullshit.  Disappear.  

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 05:41:11 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Uh-huh. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat, poligirl
                            This is the accusation that you've been challenged to prove and declined.
                            First, it wasn't an accusation, it was a question. Second, I've answered you elsewhere. You'll find it.
                            Actually, as it turns out, it might be the making up part. The false insinuation part. The obsessively commenting to me part. The taking it upon yourself to be obnoxious to me part.
                            See above wrt to the insinuation part. As for obsessively commenting to you, well, you've responded to every one of my comments, so I suppose you're obsessively commenting to me, too, aren't you?

                            As for "being obnoxious," first define "obnoxious," then show me which of my comments you feel exhibits this behavior. Then show me how they exceed in severity that which you've offered to me in response, here and previously in other diaries.

                            And another diary, where between you and me, I'm the only one to actually make a substantive post, and you're the one making dozens and dozens of posts with no other purpose but to drive people out.
                            No, "substantive" isn't defined by the person contributing, it's defined by consensus of the group to which that contribution is offered. Given the number of rec's you've received on your comments, not to mention the pushback on them by numerous other posters here, I'd say the verdict comes out not in your favor.

                            And I'm also willing to bet this diarist, of whom you are a guest in his diary, will likely consider even my comments to you to be of more value than whatever "substantive" comment you think you've offered.

                            As for "dozens and dozens" of comments I've posted, well, as of this comment, I've posted 20, all but three were to you, most of which you've returned similarly. So 20 comments is not equal to "dozens and dozens," which would be at least 48 (24 + 24). You need to brush up on your math skills.

                            And since they've mostly been to you, and you are, indeed, still here, I haven't driven anyone out, now have I?

                            As for being a "substanceless police dog by calling out ord avg guy for rec'ing your comment," well, I see no mention of rec'ing your comment, do you?

                            Oh, and how about a shout-out to ord avg guy?

                            Who remains both my #1 fan AND Inland's...

                            {{{{{{ ♥ ord avg guy ♥ }}}}}}

                            Such devotion is heart-warming.

                            by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 01:52:18 PM PST

                            Just love and hugs and recognition that you and I share a mutual fan. I'm not sure why you're so upset by that.

                            Regardless, keep failing Inland, I'm enjoying it.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 03:11:25 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "As it turns out", you said. (0+ / 0-)

                            Meaning you were stating your question as a fact.

                            And you admitted to laescapee that yes, you were suggesting, I said prove it, and you pretended to not know what I wastalking about.

                            As it turns out, you make accusations and then deny it.

                            You don't have the courage to stand behind your own patter.

                            That's just pathetic.

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 04:43:22 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's okay, Inland. (0+ / 0-)

                            Take a break.

                            Relax for awhile.

                            I'm pretty confident that my above comment, as well as the one prior, displayed the "courage to stand behind my own patter."

                            Besides, your verdict as to the outcome of a discussion — one in which you're a direct participant — isn't valid, due to your partiality to yourself.

                            Have a pleasant day.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 11:37:10 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Heh. "Confident". (0+ / 0-)

                            I guess I should look forward to continuing to taunt you over withdrawing your accusation and pretending to just be asking questions.  Because you'd rather be seen as a cowardly passive aggressive, fishing for recs with cutey patootie insinuations in dead threads, then ... how to say it?  Not be the worst poster on Daily Kos.

                            In the meantime, nobody's asking me about my new sig. Looks like you called for a witch hunt and nobody came.  Now you have something else to share with Ray.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                            by Inland on Thu Jan 30, 2014 at 01:56:45 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

            •  "i see smoke coming from inside my walls!"... (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LaEscapee, DeadHead, TheMomCat, Dallasdoc

              "but there's no fire" says Inland.

              "but shouldn't i call the fire department?"

              "only if you see flames." says Inland.

              "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

              by poligirl on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:11:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  That makes huge sense. (0+ / 0-)

                So what you're saying is that a police state is something that like a smokeless fire: you can't see it, you can't hear it, but it's there.  

                Like the tigers.

                Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:14:53 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  ok, apparently i need to dumb it down some (7+ / 0-)

                  more.

                  if you see smoke coming out of your walls, something is burning. you can call the fire department to make sure, or you can wait til you see flames, but by that time you're already taking a big loss.

                  and i'm not going any dumber than that explanation. if you can't understand that, i can't help you.

                  "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                  by poligirl on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:32:52 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I don't think it can be any dumber. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ord avg guy

                    The fact is, there's no smoke.  You can have a fire behind a wall that emits smoke and heat.  You can't say that a police state is hidden and that nobody can see it.  

                    That's why the complete lack of anything resembling a police state except in wild hyperbole counts.

                    Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                    by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:41:26 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  The infrastructure... (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      poligirl, TheMomCat, Dallasdoc

                      Is being put in place, if not already complete.

                      Deny it all you want, but your incessant trolling of these diaries, trying to convince people they aren't seeing what they're seeing, is irritating as fuck.

                      What's your goal, Inland?

                      What do you hope to achieve, other than fucking up every single discussion you come across?

                      Do you ever answer such direct questions?

                      Nope. Just deflection.




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 12:33:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Oh, and how about a shout-out to ord avg guy? (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        poligirl, TheMomCat

                        Who remains both my #1 fan AND Inland's...

                        {{{{{{ ♥ ord avg guy ♥ }}}}}}
                        Such devotion is heart-warming.




                        Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                        by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 01:52:18 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Heh. (0+ / 0-)

                          It's amazing that someone doesn't even have to comment in a diary for you to try to get them in a pie fight.  It's all you're about.  Nobody has to ask you YOUR purpose.  It's pretty plain.

                          Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                          by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 03:07:49 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I just gave him hugs and love. (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            TheMomCat, poligirl

                            So what's the problem?

                            Apparently you aren't aware of our "relationship."

                            I've missed him. He doesn't say much these days. He just likes to silently admire.

                            The same threads I'm in, actually.

                            What can I say? I have that effect on people.

                            I wish him all the best.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 05:42:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Apologies for saying you were going out of your (0+ / 0-)

                            way to be insulting even to people who are keeping out of the diary.  Now I know you weren't being a sarcastic, obsessive jerk at all, just expressing your admiration. Have you sent a kos mail asking ord avg guy to comment in your safe diaries just in case he didn't see your kind comments?

                            Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                            by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 05:58:48 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  What does that even MEAN? (0+ / 0-)

                        "The infrastructure is in place".    

                        Deny it all you want, but your incessant trolling of these diaries, trying to convince people they aren't seeing what they're seeing, is irritating as fuck
                        You can't even name what you're seeing.  An idiotic metaphor as if a police state is a car and there's a highway built.

                        I'm sure that if you said something that wasn't intentionally cryptic, someone could agree or disagree.

                        What do you hope to achieve, other than fucking up every single discussion you come across?
                        I hope to see someone discuss an issue intelligently with reference to facts instead of being trolled by people who go straight to the ad hom and bile.  Guess whose disappearance would go a long way to satisfying both those conditions?

                        Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                        by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 02:34:51 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  You didn't ask me to name anything. (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          TheMomCat, poligirl

                          But to answer the question you posed in your last sentence, the consensus appears to be:

                          Yours.

                          You've been called out for trolling and threadjacking on countless occasions, many of which occurring recently. By several different people here, in fact. Heck, one person was so fed-up with your bullshit, they personally declared you HOS.

                          You've also been rewarded for your stellar contribution to the quality of discourse here with 26 HR's spread over 5 comments in the last month alone. None from me, incidentally.

                          So yeah, you're the answer to your own question.

                          Nice try, though.




                          Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ J. Garcia

                          by DeadHead on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 06:03:40 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

              •  Houses don't burn from Democratic flames (8+ / 0-)

                anymore than kids are dismembered by Democratic drones.

                That's precisely why unquestioning devotion to Team D is your only real duty as a citizen. Do you want to come home to a smoldering pile of ash?

                When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

                by PhilJD on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:22:07 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  No more than I want to come home to tigers. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  ord avg guy

                  I'm not really sure what anything you say has to do with fires, police states, or anything.  But bloggers like what bloggers do.

                  Christie: "I'm going to find the real bullies!"

                  by Inland on Wed Jan 29, 2014 at 10:45:00 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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