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View Diary: Obama used NSA spying to kill Copenhagen Climate Change talks (263 comments)

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  •  Read the articles, maybe? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Kombema

    I think it's pretty obvious how being able to see other party's negotiating strategy gives you an advantage in negotiations.

    •  That part is obvious. (9+ / 0-)

      The part where the advantage was used to deliberately scuttle negotiations in the service of the corporate oligarchy is not.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 07:37:30 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Then you weren't paying attention to the news (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kombema, apimomfan2

        during Copenhagen. The negotiating strategy of the US was obvious: to undermine the ability of the rest of the world from making an agreement Obama couldn't come to without angering carbon-dependent oligarchs here at home.

        This will help you get caught up.

        •  So you're saying (5+ / 0-)

          to come to the conclusion you came to I need to wade through a very large amount of information and the aggregate will lead me to your conclusion?

          Yeah, no Gish Gallop for you.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 08:09:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Yes, you ACTUALLY have to know what you're (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SpecialKinFlag

            talking about to understand the implication, or else you might not be able to substantively and intelligently discuss the accusation. Heaven forfend.

            "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

            by Kombema on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 09:18:26 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yeah, bullshit. (7+ / 0-)

              To be able to demonstrate active malfeasance never requires wading through a very large amount of information and then drawing conclusions based on interpretations of aggregates.

              That's the tactic of someone who wants to obfuscate, not illuminate.

              A familiarity with the Copenhagen talks, their purported goals, and how things went down and how they failed is sufficient to be able to discuss the issue.

              One doesn't need to have to know the charter of the Port Authority of New Jersey to be able to understand how and why Bridgegate happened.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 09:38:57 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

      •  And again, just to reemphasize: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kombema

        You don't need to know that background to understand the context. The Information article makes the connection between spying and sabotage clear as day.

        Several officials from the COP15 office have told Information that they believe advance American knowledge of the Danish proposal may help explain US positioning in the months leading up to the summit. While many other countries formulated promises that were increasingly ambitious, the Obama administration never moderated its position that it would not accept any agreement resembling the Kyoto protocol. Also, the Americans only offered a 4-6 percent reduction in CO2 emissions as compared to 1990 levels, despite the fact that the UN recommendation for developed nations was 25-40 percent.
        As one government official says: »They simply sat back, just as we had feared they would if they knew about our document. They made no constructive statements. Obviously, if they had known about our plans since the fall of 2009, it was in their interest to simply wait for our draft proposal to be brought to the table at the summit.«
        This is why NSA surveillance is pernicious: it will be used in the service of the 1%
        •  In order for there to be a connection, (5+ / 0-)

          the existence of that to which you wish to connect must be demonstrated.

          You've certainly demonstrated the spying existed, which isn't really defensible.

          If the talks were sabotaged, that a connection exists could be safely assumed.

          But you have not demonstrated the talks were sabotaged.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 08:56:31 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Do you really think.... (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raptavio, Matt Z, Yasuragi, kefauver

      ...the Obama administration's policy would have changed absent the NSA intelligence?  Do you think the results of the conference would have been different given that policy?  Do you think the NSA spying was against the law, ours or any other country's?

      I agree the administration's policy is rather weak on polluters but I don't think the NSA spying made it so.

      We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

      by delver rootnose on Fri Jan 31, 2014 at 07:39:14 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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