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View Diary: Former Energy Secretary Steven Chu concedes the obvious: Keystone XL a political decision (158 comments)

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  •  Do you know what a political dog-whistle is? (16+ / 0-)

    Here, I'll help you out: http://en.wikipedia.org/...

    Do you really think Keystone is fucking lefty code for something else, as Benghazi unmistakably is to the right?

    Both sides do it my ass. How very Villager of you.

    I think the pipleline has been elevated to a kind of dog whistle to the left like Bengazi is to the right.

    When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

    by PhilJD on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 01:57:28 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  I think that's a little harsh (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      marsanges, Eyesbright, ban nock

      ban nock is simply stating facts - that heavy opposition to the pipeline is almost exclusively on the far left.  I think your passionate response is evidence of that; a dog whistle is intended to invoke an emotional response.

      I have stayed on the sidelines of this issue, because I have seen my liberal friends go on the attack like this.  I have questions, and MB has done a very good job of addressing those questions in this diary.

      I don't want those tar sands extracted any more than you do, and I'm sure ban nock would agree.  My only concern was/is whether not building the pipeline would stop the extraction.

      If there is no pipeline, and say Canada builds one, and they export using dirty ships to dirty refineries in China, I don't think we're doing the world any favors.

      So, I would really appreciate it if we could get back to what we liberals do best - debating issues with science, fact and reality, as opposed to emotional reactions.

      "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

      by La Gitane on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 02:24:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  "evoke" - sorry... nt (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Eyesbright, ban nock

        "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

        by La Gitane on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 02:25:19 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I disagree. I don't think my response is either (15+ / 0-)

        harsh or "far left." I proudly plead guilty to being "far left" in most regards, but opposition to Keystone is a mainstream position among even quite moderate environmentalists.

        With a Democratic Administration in power, it should have been laughed out of the discussion years ago.

        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

        by PhilJD on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 02:31:14 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  unless... (12+ / 0-)
          it should have been laughed out of the discussion years ago.
          the administration has supported it all along. exhibit a: the southern half of the pipeline is built.
        •  You said: (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hooper, cville townie, La Gitane, ModMark
          With a Democratic Administration in power, it should have been laughed out of the discussion years ago.
          I think this is tremendous understatement of what we're asking President Obama to do.   We're not asking for a small thing in requesting that KXL be turned down.   We are asking the President to make both a major national change for the nation and a significant personal change for the President's policy.

          What we're asking for is something unprecedented and difficult to do.   We're asking the President to consider the greenhouse gas emission consequences in his national interest  determination in making decisions about the importation of foreign hydrocarbon liquids from tar sands and whether the United States national interest is served by making the U.S. more dependent on high and higher greenhouse gas emission intensity hydrocarbon sources.

          A particular complicating factor is that KXL is not the first time the United States has authorized tar sands import pipeline.

          Another crucially important factor is that the United States isn't even close to beginning preparations for a cessation in the use of liquid hydrocarbon fuels.   And environmental organizations have not placed as first priorities what would have to happen in the United States transportation and energy sectors if cessation of the use of liquid hydrocarbon fuels were able to be achieved.  

          That we are not presently prepared for or moving toward  what would be needed for cessation of liquid hydrocarbon fuels as a nation is another complicating factor if you are asking President Obama to articulate a defensible position.

      •  Why do the tar sands companies want it? (9+ / 0-)

        If they can ship just as easily by rail, why do they want this pipeline?

        that heavy opposition to the pipeline is almost exclusively on the far left.
        Are you saying that science has a far left bias?

        "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross." -- Sinclair Lewis

        by expatjourno on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 02:49:32 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I said nothing about why (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Eyesbright

          the companies want it.  Of course they want it to increase production; that's obvious.

          I'm saying that polling has shown that the mainstream position is pro-pipeline; the majority of opposition is on the left.  Show me a poll that shows otherwise?

          I'm also saying that this is one issue that I hear many of my fellow liberals completely losing their shit over.  That's why I've stayed out of it because this is exactly what happens.

          Asking questions and responding with facts is how we do things around here, right?

          "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

          by La Gitane on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 02:58:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Increased profit ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... the transport costs are, pragmatically, $22 higher (the biased State Department environmental impact analysis says $6 higher, but that is not credible), and that is $22 taken straight from the profits of the production that is still viable at an increase of $22.

          Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

          by BruceMcF on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 10:14:55 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  TransCanada wants it (0+ / 0-)

          since they are a pipeline company.

          Pipelines are cheaper and easier, just sit in a control room and redirect the flow in Exxon's tank farm feeding it's refinery.

          Rail is more flexible, it can reach markets like San Francisco

      •  Wrong. (10+ / 0-)

        "If there is no pipeline, and say Canada builds one, and they export using dirty ships to dirty refineries in China, I don't think we're doing the world any favors."

        If it is bad, then it is bad.  It won't matter whether we do it or someone else does--except that it will be our hands that are dirty.

        It's like saying we have to nuke Iran because someone else will do it anyway.  
        Silly nonsense.

        "Our problem is not that the glass is half empty or half full, but that the 1% claims that it is their glass." ---Stolen from a post on Daily Kos

        by jestbill on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 02:50:56 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No. It's nothing like that. (0+ / 0-)

          See - this is exactly what I'm talking about.  You guys are sounding like something out of RS.  Do you even realize that I am not an evil-right-wing-anti-environmentalist??  I don't want those tar sands out of the ground any more than you do.  But....

          If the net result is more pollution, then isn't that bad?

          All I'm saying is stop attacking people with illogical, emotional bullshit just because they ask a valid question:

          What happens if we don't build the pipeline?
          Meteor Blades, as usual, has done an excellent job responding intelligently to mine and others' questions in this diary; I suggest you follow his example.

          "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

          by La Gitane on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 03:04:26 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm not looking to pick a fight. I don't respond (10+ / 0-)

            well to phrases like "far left" though... as if there even is such a thing in 21st century America. In a healthy body-politic, a politician like Bernie Sanders would be considered mildly left-of-center, akin to the Social Democrats in Europe.

            When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

            by PhilJD on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 03:40:59 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fair enough (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              PhilJD

              I guess I didn't mean it like that; but it is true that polling shows the opposition distinctly left of center, and mainstream is in favor of....

              And I totally agree with you - there is no such thing at the moment. The Overton Window needs to swing back our way, and I believe that it has already started....

              "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

              by La Gitane on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 04:13:02 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "distinctly left of center" (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                triv33

                I defy anyone to give that phrase a meaningful definition.  Is it a surprise that those opposing the pipeline are on the left?  Hell, there's where the environmentalists come from, the left.  Before this site became right wing, it used to be on the left, and the environment used to be a big topic.  Oh, but now it is the "far left", which I think means those not under Obama hypnotic spell.

                What I see are a lot of excuses for not sticking to principle, excuses wrapped in a reasonable sounding facade:  talk of the "far left", of polls, of Obama's limitations, of resignation to the fact that it's going to happen anyway, blah blah blah.  One would think that we were discussing some less important than the preservation of a liveable planet.

                Secrecy is a hot bed of vanity. - Joseph Brodsky They who have put out the people’s eyes reproach them for their blindness. – John Milton 1642

                by geomoo on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 08:26:00 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Unreal. (0+ / 0-)

                  I just asked a FUCKING QUESTION.

                  No wonder you guys are having so much success.

                  "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

                  by La Gitane on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 12:54:24 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  AND what a surprise... (0+ / 0-)

                  Unwittingly I have been dragged into an Obama sux/rox debate.

                  I should have known - had the meta stench all over it.

                  For your information I am not a huge fan of Obama. I am a socialist. I am also an architect who specializes in sustainability. So there's a good chance that I have done more things in my daily life that actually do improve the environment, then a bunch of self-righteous hotheads throwing meaningless slogans around that everyone ignores because you sound crazy.

                  When I do something for the environment, I do my best to learn what its true impacts are. Sometimes you would be amazed to learn that what you thought was sustainable is actually worse than the traditional method. It does the environment no good what so ever to advocate for solutions that may make the problems worse.

                  And it does you people no good to shit on people who are on your side but just want some solid answers.

                  Jesus Christ. This is the first time I've been sucked into something like this and it will be the last.

                  "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

                  by La Gitane on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 01:04:11 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  That is more a consequence of the ... (0+ / 0-)

                ... information sensorium in the United States ... given hard right wing biased media sources from the six corporations that dominate mass media, expressed opinion based on that massive onslaught of propaganda will, of course, be to the right of the normal position in countries that are not as heavily under the thumb of large transnational corporate sources of information.

                Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

                by BruceMcF on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 10:20:36 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  "No. It's nothing like that." (9+ / 0-)

            Yes, it is exactly like that.

            This is not a case of the lesser of two evils.  This is a case of "It should not be done."  
            The fact that someone else MIGHT SOMEDAY rob a bank does not justify my doing it today.

            "What happens if we don't build the pipeline?"  Well then, we don't build the pipeline.  We don't damage our own groundwater.  We don't carve out a right-of-way across the center of the country.  
            We don't abet the crime.

            "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes
            Arrogance knows neither.

            "Our problem is not that the glass is half empty or half full, but that the 1% claims that it is their glass." ---Stolen from a post on Daily Kos

            by jestbill on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 04:12:35 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

              Where the hell do you get "arrogance" from anything that I have said?

              "Well then, don't build the pipeline" - What are you? A pouty teenager?

              The fact is that you don't know.  What if Canada builds one?  Then ships - that use a lot of fuel - ship it all the way across the goddamned Pacific Ocean to be refined in unregulated China, where people can't see or breathe the way it is.

              Is that better for your self-righteous self?  "Oh, at least it's not OUR FAULT..."  Yeah, well, yes it would be.  Drive a car much?  Use plastic?  Walk on carpets?  EAT FOOD?  I guess that, even though we consume more oil per capita than any country in the world, it's okay to dirty someone else's country with it, right?

              We are all in this together, and the world will not magically become cleaner or better by doing things because it makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and not guilty and stuff...

              As I've said - AND PARDON ME IF I SHOUT BECAUSE APPARENTLY YOU DIDN'T HEAR IT THE FIRST FOUR TIMES I SAID IT:

              I AM AGAINST THE TAR SANDS.

              All I'm asking is, if the pipeline isn't built, what happens to them?  And I sure as hell don't appreciate being called names just for asking a fucking question.

              Jesus christ - DBAD.

              "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

              by La Gitane on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 04:27:41 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're not against the Tar Sands. You're (3+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                SpecialKinFlag, Nada Lemming, triv33
                Hidden by:
                Eyesbright

                laying ground work to defend what you think is likely to be the Presidents decision to green light the pipeline.

                We're not obligated to play along like gullible dolts.

                By refusing to do so, we're not treating you unfairly.

                You need to find a place with slower people to dupe, or you need to seriously up your game.  But don't get mad at us when you fail.

                "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                by JesseCW on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 05:30:03 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  HR'd for DBAD n/t (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  La Gitane

                  They don't win until we quit fighting!

                  by Eyesbright on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 05:52:26 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  "Being a dick" is advancing disengenous (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    triv33

                    right wing talking points in defense of the destruction of the biosphere for profit, in a patented Bill O'Reilly "I'm just asking?" fashion.

                    Not calling fuckers out on it.

                    "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                    by JesseCW on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 08:03:57 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Thank you Eyesbright (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Eyesbright

                    After all my time here on DKos, I've never been accused of being a right wing plant or compared to Bill O'Reilly. I think I've proven over time my liberal and environmental bona fides.

                    I appreciate someone sticking up for me.

                    "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

                    by La Gitane on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 12:48:14 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                •  I am doing no such thing (0+ / 0-)

                  I asked a question.

                  You couldn't answer it.

                  So you chose to insult me and be a self righteous dick instead.

                  Good night and grow up. This is no way to advance an argument if you want to be taken seriously.

                  "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

                  by La Gitane on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 12:45:54 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  But we have the analysis ... (0+ / 0-)

                ... and the analysis says that that will cost more than the Keystone XL. Therefore, it follows directly that it will be more costly to bring tar sands production to a halt given the Keystone XL than it will be given the pipeline to China tankers than it will be to bring tar sands production.

                The Keystone XL pipeline is the scenario which makes it costliest to halt production of tar sands oil. That's what the analysis says. So the economic impact of the Keystone XL, if we presume that the United States ever adopts policies to defend itself from destruction, is necessarily negative.

                Arguments over how much extra cost it imposes are quibbling, since given a negative economic impact, there is no reason to permit it.

                Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

                by BruceMcF on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 10:23:28 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  "You guys are sounding like something out of (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            SpecialKinFlag, Nada Lemming, triv33

            Rolling Stone".

            Sad thing is, you honestly prolly' think that was an insult rather than a massive compliment.

            "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

            by JesseCW on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 05:28:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Also, building a pipeline and ... (0+ / 0-)

          ... then shipping by sea to China is still more expensive than the Keystone XL, so the carbon tax required to take the tar sands production out of production under that scenario is lower than the carbon tax required to take the tar sands out of production under the Keystone XL scenario.

          There is no scenario in which the Keystone XL does not increase the carbon price required to squelch tar sands production, and not allowing the production of any source as CO2 intensive as tar sands is required for the continued survival of the United States to be feasible. So any non-treasonous analysis by the State Department, which logically has to include the possibility of the United States defending itself from runaway climate change, has to be based on how the construction of the pipeline increases the cost of preventing tar sands oil from being produced.

          Support Lesbian Creative Works with Yuri anime and manga from ALC Publishing

          by BruceMcF on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 10:18:51 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  well ya, exactly, like the way you responded to (1+ / 1-)
      Recommended by:
      La Gitane
      Hidden by:
      Nada Lemming

      my comment.

      Lots of "fucking" and calling my comment "villager" and lots of recs for the fucking and villager and not much substance. Rush would love to hear from you.

      Keystone, Benghazi, Birth Certificate.

      “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

      by ban nock on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 07:07:03 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  hr (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        PhilJD, triv33, poligirl

        For asshatery and projection.  

        "It rubs the lotion on its skin" is not effective coalition building.

        by Nada Lemming on Tue Feb 04, 2014 at 07:46:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Rec'd for the comparisons (0+ / 0-)

        To Benghazi and birth certificate.

        I guess Keystone is now the liberal CT/litmus test.

        Anyone who has questions is automatically branded a right-wing Obama-loving traitor.

        This is exactly why I have stayed away from this debate. And this is exactly why this issue is losing in the polls.

        "Mediocrity cannot know excellence." -- Sherlock Holmes

        by La Gitane on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 01:24:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  "Benghazi" is rightwing code (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        triv33, poligirl, TheMomCat, Nada Lemming

        for "Muslim Kenyan socialist." It's properly described as a dog-whistle, because none of those descriptors have much to do with Barack Obama.

        What is "Keystone" code for? The items on your list, "Koch brothers, tar sands, aquifers," are all legitimately associated in the real world with Keystone.

        It's a bogus comparison. "Both sides do it" is an entirely fair and apt description of your comment. That's quintessential Village-speak.

        When you triangulate everything, you can't even roll downhill...

        by PhilJD on Wed Feb 05, 2014 at 06:23:46 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  you respond to the whistle and you don't even know (0+ / 0-)

          why. Pavlov.

          I call you folks the "left village" insular doesn't begin to describe it.

          “Conservation… is a positive exercise of skill and insight, not merely a negative exercise of abstinence and caution…” Aldo Leopold

          by ban nock on Thu Feb 06, 2014 at 01:44:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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