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View Diary: I support Palestinians' use of nonviolence. For this my book events are being cancelled. In America. (330 comments)

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  •  What about anti-Zionist Jews? (9+ / 0-)

    I think many equate anti-Zionist with antisemitic.

    •  That's like saying anti-Tea Party is . . . (8+ / 0-)


      Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

      by bobdevo on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 02:35:38 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  While not all anti-zionists (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      GermanGuy, 43north, gharlane

      are anti-Jewish, many are, and this is the way they express their dislike of Judiasm.  For example Pat Buchanan doesn't care for the religion of Judiasm and has been anti-Israel for years.

      •  And plenty of antisemitic people in the US (35+ / 0-)

        support Israel. The evangelical right has the highest level of support in the US for Israel. Higher than Jews in the US from last I saw. And the evangelical right only supports Israel because they want the end times to happen and they think that Israel has to exist for that to happen.

        If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

        by AoT on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 07:35:33 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And the response is an attempt to muddy the waters (27+ / 0-)


        If I wanted to call republicans Nazis every single day, I'd point out all the instances where the stormfront crowd has come out in vocal support of their policies.

        I don't want Republicans to feel like they're under siege because of me. I want them to feel like they're under siege because of their own damn politics. Let them do this to themselves.

        Hitler built the first interstate highway system. That doesn't make Eisenhower a Nazi. Eisenhower killed Nazis.

        The fact that antisemites will never stop screaming about how they think Jews rule the world doesn't make everyone who disagrees with the policies of the Israeli government an antisemite.

        And so it's a typical political tactic: you find the craziest person who disagrees with you, you highlight their views, and you treat them like the norm.

        That's why everyone thinks radfems are mainstream. That's why the folks that support the Israeli government are parroting these talking points. Because if we can stop the peace process, the government gets to greenlight more settlements. That means that the ultra-right wing of the Knesset is happy and stays in Bibi's coalition, and Bibi gets to keep his job.

        For anyone wondering what I'm talking about, I wrote about them a while ago.

        By the way, Danny Dannon, whom I quote in that post, who wanted to round up all ethnic Africans in Israel and put them in camps? He's now deputy minister for defense. He also invited Glenn Beck to speak to the Knesset, against the wishes of the ADL and Nita Lowey.

        That's the kind of person who's running things in Israel right now.

        An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

        by OllieGarkey on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 07:41:55 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I am simply pointing out (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Al Abama, Andrew Lazarus

          that for some anti-zionists, who are politically on the right or center or left, their motivation is they don't like the Jewish religion. Ergo they don't like Israel. Why is that so hard to accept?

          •  Maybe because (6+ / 0-)

            some anti-zionists, and non zionists, are proudly Jewish themselves?

            •  Maybe they are, but I doubt it. (1+ / 0-)
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              Think about it. Of all the causes and inequities in the world--like the Chinese occupation of Tibet, the Turks surpressing the Kurds, the horrors of Zimbabwe and the Central African Republic and on and on--but these proud anti-zionists Jews only care about Israeli continuing to exist as a zionist nation.

              •  I find (10+ / 0-)

                a lot of pro-Tibet independence, ending the exploitation of labor in Africa and Asia, and activism to support a cease fire in the CAR in the community I mention, how can you say:

                but these proud anti-zionists Jews only care about Israeli continuing to exist as a zionist nation.
                I don't see any singling out.

                Only?  That certainly is not my experience.  Civil and human rights struggles seem to capture the imaginations of the young activist community.

                The proudly Jewish anti-zionists are only anti-zionist to the extent that they are anti occupation.  Many are zionist, in the sense they support a free and just and secure state of Israel within internationally recognized borders, and they see the occupation as inconsistent with that.  Others are simply non-zionist, proud Jews, but they don't feel the nationalist imperative as relevant to them.  

              •  Everyone Else Is Doing It Too™ (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                caul, JesseCW


              •  I think you should organize (5+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco, AoT, Flyswatterbanjo, caul, JesseCW

                against some of the oppressions that you're pointing out in this comment of yours.

              •  BULL. AND I AM SO TIRED OF THIS (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                poco, caul

                First of all, there are those of us who DO protest the treatment of North Koreans, the central Africans (not just Zimbabwe & Central African Republic), Turks, Rohingyas, etc.

                That's probably almost all the people who are member of this website with an opinion on Israel-Palestine.

                It begs several questions:

                1. Why are you trying to distract away from the Israeli apartheid state's human rights abuses?  Because that's the same technique - distraction - the current government there uses to perpetrate its human rights abuses.   It claims to be a "democracy" in presentations of itself to the world  but at the same time uses the force of state against those trying to keep their land who aren't Jewish.  It even attempts to erase the history of the theft of land from its school history books.

                2.  Given the existence of folks like me who think human rights should apply uniformly around the world, why do folks who make this argument wish to put Israel in the same class as Burma, Turkey, Zimbabwe, and North Korea, as a human rights violating state?

              •  Hey! Look over there!!! (1+ / 0-)
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                "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                by JesseCW on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:50:02 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Similarly, for some Zionists, (10+ / 0-)

            Muslims are scum and deserve to all be murdered, man, woman, and child....  Admittedly, it's a rather small number of Zionists.  Now...  What does saying that achieve?

          •  That's not hard to accept at all. (8+ / 0-)

            In fact, I thought I agreed that these people exist, though I think I could have been clearer.

            That's my fault for posting while decaffeinated.

            I fully accept without question that there are people who disagree with the Jewish religion. And I'll go further. There are people who disagree with the very existence of Jewish people.

            I write about them.

            I study them.

            I even post entries about my suspicions of the catholic church's recent whitewashing of their support of fascism.

            No one can deny that in America, and in every single European and Middle Eastern nation, and even in Asia, there are people who want the Jewish people to cease to exist.

            I will never deny their existence, and I will never deny that they are dangerous.

            My ethnic group was expelled from our homeland, from the Gaidhealtachd, and our language was taken from us. But our right to exist, was not questioned. Our right to exist as Gaels, instead of Anglophone brits, that was questioned. But no one has ever questioned our right to exist at all, just the form and location of that existence. As a Gael, I'm part of a multinational diaspora, and have cultural links with not only the Scots, but the Irish, Welsh, Manx, Galician, and Breizh immigrants here in the US. I have links to the diaspora in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and even India and South Africa.

            So I'm incredibly empathetic when it comes to the Jewish people, because like Gaels and Celts, we've both become nations without borders. Of the seven celtic countries that once existed, only one part of one nation is independent of the people who conquered us, whether it be by fire and sword, or god and gold.

            I'm very worried about anti-Jewish sentiment because history tells me that if they come for the Jews today, they'll be coming for the Gael tomorrow. And the Blacks, and the First Nations. And those of us who like me are queer. And all of us who don't fit neatly into their Aryan model of regimented white-bread humanity.

            But all of that being said, I know for a fact because I write about them, and study them, that these people do not represent a majority of the people who are critical of Likud. Definitely not in the American context. Things get unfortunately muddier in Europe, but that's why America needs to lead the way on Israel policy internationally.

            We are critical of Likud for many of the same reasons we are critical of ethnototalitarian worldviews.

            We're critical of Likud because there are portions of Likud that are unquestionably neofascist:

            Danny Dannon, a member of Bibi's cabinet, called for the government to build internment camps and round up the African population of Israel:

            "The infiltrators must be distanced immediately," he said. "We must expedite the construction of temporary detention facilities and remove Africans from population centers."
            That's from Haaretz.

            And WHY did the Africans need to be rounded up? Because a bunch of Likud supporters smashed the windows of their shops, beat them in the streets, and waved the Israeli Flag while marching through broken glass. Dannon said that the only way to stop Likud members' violence against African Immigrants was to round them up and put them in camps.

            The Israeli Left, as I quoted, referred to it as an "Israeli Kristallnacht," and "Kristallnacht 2012."

            And I agree, completely, with the Israelis who flooded the streets and shut down the roads around Likud's headquarters in response to the Likud-led violence against African immigrants.

            We don't hate Israel. We don't disagree with Israel, because that would mean disagreeing with our allies in the Israeli left. We don't agree with the people who don't want Israel to exist. How someone disagrees with an entire nation of people who don't even agree with themselves is beyond me.

            For the sake of Israel's very survival we need to find some way to prevent Likud from continuing to make the middle east a more dangerous place. We need to find some kind of appropriate economic consequence for shutting down the peace process. We've got to let Likud know that we're not going to let them play games with Israel's future.

            My position is this: for the sake if Israel's very survival, for the sake of it's continued existence, we need to find some way to contain Likud. Before Europeans start acting on their  economic and political threats. Before the entire world sees the Palestinians as innocent victims rather than cobelligerent perpetrators of a complex cycle of violence.

            The EU is going to be a serious power in the next century. It's having a tough start, but it has a bigger economy than ours, and it has a growing military industrial complex that will likely continue to grow, especially now that the French and other pro-military nations are having a voice in EU military policy. And if Turkey gets their wish and Joins the EU this century?

            We have a window, right now, to act. We've got a few years. But if the Israeli democracy doesn't self correct, and if we don't do anything to tell our friends "no" when they're making incredibly destructive decisions...

            Agriculture is tiny, but financial services and exporting industry are fairly huge chunks of Israel's economy.

            If there's European economic sanctions? 15-30% of Israel's economy goes up in smoke. And that's just trade, financial services like international banking, exports. The Israeli service sector is 60% of the economy.

            When the exports, trade, and international financial services go up in smoke, and European companies are forced to pull out? The Service sector collapses, because the system supporting it has collapsed. We're looking to a situation quite similar to Greece in that scenario.

            That's the nightmare scenario: A combination of Boycotts and official sanctions from an EU that doesn't care what the Americans have to say about Israel, just like they don't care what we have to say about Cuba.

            Antisemitism is growing in Europe. The combination of immigration from majority Muslim nations, and a new rise of far-right old style nationalist parties like UKIP, the BNP, and the EDL, in Britain, and their partners in other nations is leading to a place where you have a not-insignificant Far-Right anti-Jewish (not anti-Israel, but anti-Jewish) lobby in the European parliament. Conservative parties that need an in with the pro-Palestinian recent immigrants from North Africa and the Middle East are going to end up in coalitions with those very same far-right parties.

            You know what they can do to make the Anti-Jewish far right, and the Anti-Israel left happy? An EU-Wide sanction of Israel in retaliation for the illegal occupation. For a conservative party, that's a coup. They get wide support from the pro-Palestine lobby, from the far right that hates the Jews, and if they throw in some anti-gay rhetoric with the mix, then they've begun playing the margins game like Karl Rove. Contacts I have in Britain say that the back-benches of the conservative party are already considering this as a potential strategy, and the only reason they aren't already jumping for it is because they're suspicious of the EU and they like the US too much. But if it looks like they're going to lose power, or if it looks like some other major European conservative party is about to lose power, this is exactly the kind of tactic I'm worried about them employing in the coming decades.

            And as long as Likud continues to act the way it's acting, when they expand settlements because they're pissed at the UN, when they thumb their noses at the US and Europe, they're creating a very, very dangerous future for Israel.

            For the sake of the Israeli people, we've got to find some way to intervene, as soon as possible. Before things get out of hand, and we end up in a place where there's very little the US can do for Israel.

            Do you think for a second that America is going to bail out the Israeli economy when our own bailouts led to OWS, the Tea Party Movement, and as much unrest as we've seen because of our own economic downturn?

            Do you get where I'm coming from, now?

            Do you get how I can have a great deal of love for, and empathy with the Jewish people inside and outside of Israel, while being very, very worried about the consequences for Likud's actions?

            I'm sorry this is such a long comment. But this issue is way, way too important and complicated for your typical, short, back-and-forth.

            An Fhirinn an aghaidh an t'Saoghail. (The truth against the world.) Is treasa tuath na tighearna. (The common people are mightier than the lords.)

            by OllieGarkey on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:03:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Your insightful comment is a delight (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              I slightly disagree with some of your points: I do not think this whole boycott issue does or would achieve anything good, rather harden attitudes of everybody involved, and my idea is that one should alleviate the impression of a siege with eliminatory intent that made Israeli politics turn to the right since the second intifada. And further down the road I do not see a comprehensive economic boycott of Israel from Europe in any case, in particular in Germany it would be anathema at least for historic reasons. But short of that: Your authentic and insightful comment is a delight to read.

              One remark, off topic to this diary, as you spoke about your Gaelic heritage ... In 2011, I met a wonderful lady of Irish-Scottish descent, Noreena by name, who was raised by an aunt in Germany because her family had lost a son in Northern Ireland and wanted their daughter to grow up safe. We talked a lot about what her heritage meant to her, and in 2012, she decided to quit her good and easy life in Germany and move to Inverness in order to work on reclaiming her family's former real estate, which had been taken by the English in 1745 because of her ancestor's participation in the Jacobite rising. She contacted her familiy's clan, Lovat/MacShimi, which gave her some support, she spent months researching documents in churches and institutions and was on high spirits. However, on November 29, 2012, she died in a car accident near Inverness. I feel an eternal bond with this wonderful lady and daughter of the Highlands, and I deeply wish that her dream of an independent Scotland will become true in September ...

            •  I apprecate your thoughtful (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              varro, GermanGuy

              comment and concern for Israel and the Jewish people. However, as I'm sure you can see from the many comments on this blog, there's alot of folks here who don't like Israel at all, even if Israel gives back the West Bank.

              Several responses:

              Despite what you say about the far right resurgence in Europe, I've come to see the far left--in alliance with the the Islamists--as more anti-Israel and anti-Jewish.  As I'm sure you are aware, the boycott threats and harassment of Israeli scholars at Western Universities are coming from the far left.

              I think you're getting carried away with demonizing the Likud party, as though the Israeli electorate is too stupid to figure out what's in their best interest.  The majority of Israeli's are not in favor of expanding settlements.  Their issue re the West Bank is military.  If Israeli military leaves West Bank, then they are afraid Hamas or others will move into the area and start shooting missiles at Israel from the East.  Which cannot be allowed.  

      •  Zionism is to Jewish as Fascism is to Christian (0+ / 0-)

        State coercision defending a religion makes that religion itself oppressive.

        •  Zionism is to Jewish as "Free Tibet" is to (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hokieduck13, animator9

          Tibetan Buddhism. The Jewish People is an ethnic-national group that historically has practiced one religion. It is also united by a common language, alphabet, literature, history, etc.

          Zionism is about re-establishing the historic homeland of the Jewish People. Previously, the Jews were in a position very similar to that of the Roma in Europe -- frequently non-citizens, occupying a tenuous position in countries ruled by others, and often under pressure to abandon their distinctive national character. The modern American idea that being Jewish is simply about practicing the religion of Judaism is not in keeping with the traditional Jewish self-understanding.

    •  How do you define "anti-Zionist"? (6+ / 0-)

      Seems like you could call anyone who believes in a one-state solution anti-Zionist, and calling people antisemitic for that strikes me as pretty crazy.

      •  An anti-zionist (37+ / 0-)

        is anyone who doesn't think Israel should be a Jewish (ethnic-religious) state. Zionism is inherently discriminatory and exclusive. It amounts to Jewish supremacy. In Israel non-Jews are second class citizens by law. Sure, anti-Semites oppose Zionism and so do liberals who like to be consistent. David -- whom I respect but disagree with -- is one of those liberals who tries futilely to square his liberalism with Zionism.

        •  David's correct on two fronts: (32+ / 0-)

          1. Squaring my progressivism and Zionism is not an easy task, partially due to the inherent contradictions in "Jewish" and "democracy"

          2. Ant- or post-Zionism is not inherently anti-Semitic. There are many Jews who care about the full rights of all peoples in Israel/Palestine. They just want to see a post-ethnic democracy. As David notes, those who are actually anti-Semitic are also going to be anti-Zionist by default.

          "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

          by David Harris Gershon on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 06:44:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  How do you achieve #1? (10+ / 0-)

            Either Jews are privileged over non-Jews or they're not. In theory, it might be possible. In practice it's a pipe dream given the nature of Israeli society as it actually exists.

            I don't see this as a specifically Israeli fault, btw. Any nation so constituted must fail in this respect.

          •  In your view, what are the "inherent (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            leftynyc, JNEREBEL, livosh1

            contradictions in 'Jewish' and 'democracy'"?

            Before getting to Israel, which I take to be the focus of your remark, let me note your looseness of expression. Have you observed some "inherent contradiction" between American citizens who identify as "Jewish" and "democracy" in America? I didn't think so.

            With that said, let's proceed.

            Formally, all Israel's citizens are accorded equal rights.
            Formally, all U.S. citizens are accorded equal rights.

            Israeli practice, in some respects, departs from that ideal.
            American practice, in some respects, departs from that ideal.

            A majority of Israeli citizens are Jews, at least nominally.
            A majority of American citizens are Christian, at least nominally.
            (Note, however, that while "Christian," in principle, is purely a religious signifier, "Jewish" is a signifier that includes people without religion.)

            Is there an inherent contradiction between "Christian" and "democracy"?

            Speaking as a non-Christian, I don't think so.

            Turning to Israel, I suggest that the most serious departures from equal rights arise because many Jewish Israelis, the great majority of the population, feel existentially threatened by their Arab neighbors and, in that conflict, they are uncertain of the loyalties of Palestinian Israelis. Recall the treatment by the U.S. government during World War II, with much less justification, of Japanese Americans.

            Of course, understanding this phenomenon does not excuse it. Nor should it detract from supporting ongoing efforts to bring everyday practice closer to the ideal. But it both gives hope for the future and argues against seeing an "inherent contradiction" between "Jewish" and "democracy."

            Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

            by another American on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 07:41:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The contradiction is not in a person being (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              stargaze, poco, JesseCW

              Jewish and supporting democracy, the contradiction is in a country declaring itself both a democracy and having one ethnic group being supreme. Democracies are based on equality, and Israel has inequality built into it explicitly.

              And yes, the US has it's problems with racism, we fight against that here. Israel is founded on ethnic cleansing and if that ethnic cleansing was reversed then the country would disappear. This fact s shown by the fact that "right of return" is presented as being "Wanting to destroy Israel" even here at DKos.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 08:03:36 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're not the diarist. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                GermanGuy, JNEREBEL, livosh1

                Ah well, neither Israel's Declaration of Independence nor its Basic Laws declare "one ethnic group being supreme."

                That said, is there an "inherent contradiction" between "Greek" and "democracy"? between "Irish" and "democracy"? between "Tibetan" and "democracy"?

                Inquiring minds want to know why "Jewish" and "democracy" are singled out.

                Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

                by another American on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 08:14:39 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  "Jewish and Democratic" are singled out because (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  AoT, JesseCW, poco, stargaze

                  it is the current formulation that Israeli leaders are relentlessly promulgating in an attempt to convince the world that the Palestinians must recognize "the Jewish State of Israel." This while 20% of Israeli citizenry are not Jewish. You say cultural zionism is dead. So then what exactly does "Jewish State" mean? What does it mean to the 20% who are not Jewish?

                  I don't hear Edna Kenny declaring Ireland to be Irish and democratic every other day.

                  If reality clashes with your belief, then the problem clearly is reality.--God

                  by Flyswatterbanjo on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:05:50 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well the difference is that (0+ / 0-)

                    other "ethnic" countries, like Germany or Greece, allow non-Germans and non-Greeks to become full citizens. Israel doesn't. (In this, Israel is like states that don't allow non-Muslims to become full citizens."

                •  There is an inherent contradiction (0+ / 0-)

                  between any ethnic state and democracy, period. I would add France and Russia to that list. Ethno-nationalism and democracy are incompatible, period.

                  Inquiring minds want to know why "Jewish" and "democracy" are singled out.
                  I would guess the answer is two fold, first because we are seeing a nation-state being created and the creation of a nation state is an ugly thing. European nation-states were created quite a while ago so most people have forgotten about the violence that's gone into making them.

                  The second reason is that Israel is the only place I know of that has an entire group of people who they are making stateless. Israel has ethnically cleansed a huge number of Palestinians from it's lands and then refused to consider them a state in the lands they've been purged to. And there's the fact that they're one of America's closest allies.

                  Or course, you'd like to ignore all that and imply it's anti-semitism because none of that fits your narrative.

                  If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                  by AoT on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:12:21 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Until extremely recently, being born in (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  callmecassandra, poco

                  the Republic of Ireland meant you were Irish.

                  Same rights as any other citizen, regardless of your confessional status or skin color.  While that may not be reflected in your treatment in society, it is the law.

                  Being born in Israel doesn't make you a full citizen of a democracy unless you're Jewish.  Your rights, including the right to purchase or lease property owned by the state on an equal footing, are limited by law.

                  "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

                  by JesseCW on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:57:42 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  While I think that's largely representative (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I will point out that some people who define themselves as Zionists are fully supportive of a pluralistic secular and democratic state in the Levant in which Jewish people are equal citizens with people of all faiths and none, and truly wish nothing more than a nation in which Jews can exist in their historic homeland peacefully alongside cousins who have adopted other faiths.

          "I read New republic and Nation/I've learned to take every view.." P. Ochs

          by JesseCW on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:53:53 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Zionism (4+ / 0-)

        is the national movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the creation of a Jewish country in the their ancestral homeland of Israel.  Since the one-state solution seeks to eliminate the Jewish identity of Israel and, possibly, make Jews a minority in the country, it is therefore anti-zionist.

        •  Not sure of that logic (14+ / 0-)
          Since the one-state solution seeks to eliminate the Jewish identity of Israel and, possibly, make Jews a minority in the country, it is therefore anti-zionist.
          Judah Magnes, Henrietta Szold, Albert Einstein, Arthur Ruppin, Martin Buber, shared a vision that was Zionist, but also inclusive, seeking a bi-National State, even if it meant being a minority.  
          “Magnes believed that democracy required equal opportunity for all and that once special privileges are granted, democracy ceases to exist …. Magnes wanted Jews to have the opportunity to migrate to Palestine and develop their culture there. As proclaimed democrats, he argued that Zionists can ask for ‘equal rights’ in Palestine just as Jews have the right to ask for equal rights ‘in all lands’ where they live. To ask for more than this … ‘is to make an exception for Palestine in the formulation of a political program for the Jewish people.’ According to democratic principles, Magnes maintained, Zionists can only request from the Ottoman Empire that Jews in Palestine be given the same rights as other groups living there. He believed that Zionists needed to accept the existence of a large Arab population living in Palestine.”  
          American Council for Judaism
        •  The one-state solution is rights-based (25+ / 0-)

          and is premised upon the notion that a state should be a state of all its citizens, Jewish or non-Jewish.

          Whether one agrees with that or not is something else, but it does not seek to take any rights away from anyone who is a citizen.

          •  But how could that ever work? (4+ / 0-)

            So, after decades of bitter warfare, Israelis and Palestinians could suddenly discover the will to live in a state with a rouhly 50-50 split, and not have any issues? Multiethnic states, even some without history of armed conflict, have collapsed one after the other. Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Soviet Union all imploded almost overnight. Even Western democracies like Belgium or Spain are finding it difficult to manage a multinational population?

            •  WELL, FOR ONE, (18+ / 0-)

              they are already living in one state. Israel controls everything from the Mediterranean to the Jordan river. They're living together now. So what would be the problem if everyone had equal rights?

              You know that Jews living in the West Bank are allowed to vote for the government that rules over them and are subjected to Israeli civil law, while non-Jews living in the West Bank cannot vote for the government that rules over them and are subject to Israeli military law.

              Again, what would be the problem with everyone having equal rights? The problem would be that the privileged group would be very upset. So I guess we shouldn't advocate for equal rights, then.

              If reality clashes with your belief, then the problem clearly is reality.--God

              by Flyswatterbanjo on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:21:24 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Two-state solution is better. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                JNEREBEL, GermanGuy, varro

                Israel is a mix of being a democracy with some flaws (west of the Green line) and an ethnocracy east of it, where as you mention settlers vote in Israeli elections, Palestinians don't, different legal systems apply etc. A two-state solution would remove most if not all settlements and give the Palestinians a state of their own. I don't see it possible for the Palestinians and Israelis to ever live in one state, because they are two peoples, not one. We can just look at Syria, Iraq, or even many European nations and see how multinational states with populations lacking a common identity work. Take a look at Ukraine, which has a European-leaning western part and a Russian-leaning eastern part, and see how the cooperation and equal rights work out. It is simply not possible to combine the Israel and Palestine and expect to get a functioning state.

                •  We have some common ground. In both cases, (9+ / 0-)

                  I think we can agree that the occupation has to end. I believe BDS can help achieve that. It has made some significant gains recently; the giant Dutch pension fund PGGM recently divested from five Israeli banks for providing financing for settlement building, and settlers in the Jordan Valley have complained that their sales are way down due to boycott. These have gotten mainstream media attention.

                  I think this pressure is what is making Israel take this current round of talks seriously. That's why they're upset, really. There might actually be a solutions down the road, which means Israel will have to make compromises.

                  If reality clashes with your belief, then the problem clearly is reality.--God

                  by Flyswatterbanjo on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:27:37 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What does BDS stand for? (0+ / 0-)

                    Does it represent boycotting every product with a "made in Israel" tag or is it primarily focused on targeting organizations and companies which benefit from the occupation? On the one hand BDS in theory targets Israel as a whole, but at the same time almost all cases where someone chose to boycott dealt with settlements only.
                    IMO I think that companies like Ahava or the banks you mentioned should be targeted, that way they might change their policies regarding investing in the settlements. At the same time, I don't think it makes much sense to ban academic relations with Israeli universities and shut down dialogue.

                    •  BDS asks that you do what you can do. (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      AoT, poco, JesseCW, bananapouch1

                      Formally, they believe that to achieve their goals of rights for all Palestinians (citizens, those under occupation, and the refugees), all of Israel should be boycotted, because Israel is the agent. Israel gives subsidies to businesses that are located in the settlements. Israel builds the infrastructure for those businesses and settlements.

                      The banks are in Israel, yet you can see how boycotting them could be helpful.

                      As far as the academic boycott goes, as I said elsewhere in this thread, it is a boycott of Israeli academic institutions, not individual Israeli academics:

                      Unlike the South African academic boycott, which was a “blanket” boycott of academics and institutions, the PACBI call explicitly targets Israeli academic institutions because of their complicity, to varying degrees, in planning, implementing, justifying or whitewashing aspects of Israel’s occupation, racial discrimination and denial of refugee rights. This collusion takes many forms, from systematically providing the military-intelligence establishment with indispensable research—on demography, geography, hydrology, and psychology, among other disciplines—to tolerating and often rewarding racist speech, theories and “scientific” research. It also includes institutionalizing discrimination against Palestinian Arab citizens, among them scholars and students; suppressing Israeli academic research on Zionism and the Nakba; and the construction of campus facilities and dormitories in the occupied Palestinian territory, as Hebrew University has done in East Jerusalem, for instance.

                      If reality clashes with your belief, then the problem clearly is reality.--God

                      by Flyswatterbanjo on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:18:27 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I disagree with this though. (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:

                        I think it's unfair to penalize an entire nation for the actions of their government. If so, then I should stop writing my post from a Chinese-produced laptop. We would literally need to boycott most of the world using this logic. Boycotting businesses that directly profit from the occupation of the West Bank (or Kashmir, Northern Cyprus, Tibet, and other areas) is a great idea though.

                        •  So you oppose sanctions on Iran? (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:

                          And every other country?

                          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                          by AoT on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 10:47:09 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Iran is different. (0+ / 0-)

                            The country is trying to produce nuclear weapons which would threaten the entire world. If it gives up its nuclear program, sanctions will be loosened. It will not need to give up its theocratic dictatorship.

                          •  The sanctions punish the people there (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            Because of the actions of the government. You said you opposed that. Are there any sanctions you oppose, or is it just boycotts? Did you oppose the boycott of South Africa, because again, that was punishing a country for the actions of their government.

                            And let's not forget that this is a government that Israeli's chose. They are, as we are so often reminded, a democracy. At what point are the citizen's of a democracy responsible for the actions of their government?

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 11:25:34 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  depends what sanctions you're proposing. (0+ / 0-)

                            If you're trying to label settlement goods (like half the EU wants to do) then that's a great idea. If you're encouraging artists to not perform in Israel, then that has nothing to do with the occupation, and everything to do with delegitimizing Israel. Although I will agree with you that in a democracy, elections have consequences, so maybe the Israelis could learn that and stop supporting warmongers.

                          •  The sanctions on Iran are in no way limited (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            to nuclear weapons. They are economic, scientific, all kinds of things. Ditto with sanctions on pretty much every other place that we put sanctions on. Or the boycott of South Africa.

                            And at what point should the consequences of elections include a boycott? That's the question here.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 01:52:20 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  let's go step by step (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            First, start labeling settlement products (there is a growing international consensus in that direction). If that doesn't work, impose sanctions on the Ahavas, Sodastreams etc. And on and on until Israel starts obeyibg international law in the occupied territories.

                          •  This is a thing I can get behind (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            As it is I boycott Israeli goods. But I'm poor, so it doesn't mean much. I think Hasbra hummus is the only thing I choose not to buy.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 10:23:15 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What other countries do you boycott? (0+ / 0-)

                            Do you use Chinese-made phones, laptops, etc? How about watching the Olympics in Sochi?

                          •  I totally refuse to watch the Olympics (0+ / 0-)

                            I also refuse to eat at McDonalds, and when possible I refuse to buy Nestle products, and Coke. I would refuse to buy Chinese made computers but I need a computer to make my living and I'm not sure where you can find electronics that aren't made in China at this point. Certainly not any that I can afford. I'd bet that some of the electronics I have bought were developed in part in Israel as well given the breadth of their tech industry.

                            Honestly, I try to buy as little as I possibly can in general so to some extent saying I'm going to boycott something doesn't mean a whole ton.

                            If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

                            by AoT on Thu Feb 13, 2014 at 09:54:08 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Every state is multi-national (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Aunt Martha, JesseCW

                  It is inevitable and the reality of the world.  The problems arise when states try to deny that fact and strive to represent one nation only.

                  We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Former Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis

                  by RageKage on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 12:48:37 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The nation state is the norm in Europe and Asia (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Most states in Europe and in Asia are nation states in the sense that they define themselves as the state of one particular ethnicity that has evolved into a nation. Of course there are ethnic minorities to be found in all of these nation states, sometimes these ethnic minorities of one state constitute the nation of another nation state and sometimes not, and these diverse ethnic minorities in every nation state may be bigger or smaller, but the fact stands as it is.

                    There has been and there is much discussion in Europe about the concept of the nation state. From a liberal and progressive perspective, acclaim for the concept in particular stems from the fact that the unitary narrative and public discourse within such a nation state enables and furthers social interaction, government responsibility and progressive development. This does not deny people who self-identify as members of an ethnic minority any rights as equal citizens (with one single exception, namely that in many of these nation states immigration laws give a favourable treatment to people who can demonstrate an ancestor of the ethnicity that constitutes the nation of the nation state). What is unusual in the case of Israel is the one point that ethnic minorities are exempt from compulsory enlistment in the military.

            •  Who said there would not be any issues? (9+ / 0-)

              There's no question that it would be difficult. Obtaining and maintaining equal rights for all citizens in the USA is difficult, but I don't see anyone, except for right-wingers, saying that we should not aim for that.

              So why should the rights of citizens elsewhere be any different?

              Reconciliation is a long, painful process that requires commitment from people of good will on all sides.

              •  at minimum, good will means stop expansion (5+ / 0-)

                stop expanding settlements, stop stealing water, stop and prosecute west bank settlers who attack Palestinians, houses, wells, etc.

                The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                by stargaze on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 09:46:18 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Everyone was American in the U.S. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                At least after the Civil War, there was not much of a debate that anyone born on U.S. soil was American, as difficult as the struggles against segregation, for women's rights, LGBT rights etc were. Will the Israelis and Palestinians ever consider themselves one people? Probably not. Just like Czechs and Slovaks didn't consider themselves Czechoslovaks, Croats and Serbs didn't consider themselves Yugoslavs and even how many Catalonians don't consider themselves Spaniards. This is why one state is virtually impossible.

                •  anyone born on US soil? (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Aunt Martha, caul

                  Do you know anything about the history of Native Americans in this county? Of Latinos living in the southwest? Puerto Ricans?

                  Of African Americans to this day who are excluded from the vote in all too many states by all too many devious devices? If you need an update on slave history and its bitter tailings, you could start with Denise's diary today.

                  And those are only the groups most obviously discriminated against.

                  Doesn't mean coexistence can't happen, but it's surely not a given, despite what the elementary American history texts "teach".

                  "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

                  by fhcec on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 12:00:39 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  It can't. It is a fantasy of some but it (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              would only come about anytime in the near future from violence.

              "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

              by JNEREBEL on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:07:27 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  You need four nationalities or ethnic groups (3+ / 0-)

              of comparable size and influence, as in Switzerland, to avoid the crude tyranny of the majority. With two, one is necessarily larger, and with three, it is easy for two to gang up on the third. With four, everybody can begin to see that they are all better off cooperating.

              Not that that is a sufficient condition. Yugoslavia was bitterly torn between Catholics, Orthodox Christians, Muslims, and everybody else, exacerbated by tensions between the Turkish and Austrian empires, and later the Nazis and the Soviets.

              South Africa, with 11 official languages, is well-launched on the process, helped by such things as their Truth and Reconciliation Commission.

              Having hundreds of minorities within an empire, as in the old Soviet Union and China, doesn't cut it.

              Having separate Jewish and Muslim states is much simpler to achieve than a functioning single state. We can discuss tolerance and respect for all human rights in both countries after we put an end to the violence and allow Palestinians to have a functioning economy. Among other things.

              Back off, man. I'm a logician.—GOPBusters™

              by Mokurai on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 11:29:09 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  How did the vote today in Switzerland (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:

                against immigrants turn out ?

                "There's nothing serious about a plan that claims to reduce the deficit by spending a trillion dollars on tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires." - President Obama

                by fhcec on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 12:02:15 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Swiss immigration vote (0+ / 0-)
                  How did the vote today in Switzerland against immigrants turn out ?
                  According to this article, 50.3% voted for the measure. Just barely enough to pass it.

                  Which means it may well come up again.

                  "It's high time (and then some) that we put an end to the exceptionalistic nonsense floating around in our culture and face the fact that either the economy works for all, or it doesn't work AT all." -- Sean McCullough (DailyKos user thanatokephaloides)

                  by thanatokephaloides on Sun Feb 09, 2014 at 01:30:44 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Switzerland did not "vote against immigrants" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  The resolution the Swiss adopted today constitutes an immigration regime pretty similiar to what is in place in the US, Canada and Australia. The measure opposed unlimited immigration from EU member countries (but due to bad legal texting will probably fail to achieve that aim).

        •  The one state solution seeks to eliminate the (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          happymisanthropy, caul

          Jewish identity of Israel?  While I don't think the one state solution is workable, I'd hardly say that's the purpose of the one state solution.

          Seems like if, for whatever reason, one thinks the two state solution is untenable, that only leaves one other option.

          •  Menachem Begin supported a 1-state solution (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            thanatokephaloides, whizdom, caul

            with Palestinians being offered a choice of full Israeli or Jordanian citizenship. You can look it up. He figured that resolution of the Palestinian issue would rekindle aliyah from Western Europe and the Americas in numbers that would retain a Jewish majority. We'll never know on that. But most of his supporters wanted Palestine free of Palestinians. Instead, they get Israel heading for pariah status, full speed ahead.

          •  Whether or not it is the purpose is less (0+ / 0-)

            important as understanding it is the end result of the policy.

            Whether or not someone believes by supporting BDS they are supporting people who's goal is the destruction of the current state of Israel is less important than knowing that said support will effectively end the state as it has existing from its founding.

            "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

            by JNEREBEL on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:18:42 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  There's a huge difference between claiming (0+ / 0-)

              something is it's purpose, and claiming something is the end result.  In the former, all supporters are out to get you.  In the latter, well meaning people may (In your opinion) have come to the absolute wrong conclusion.

              •  The difference exists but is it meaningful? (0+ / 0-)

                If the results mean the end of your country, whether or not the results were those that were intended, then they are likely to be inconsequential to the citizens that have lost their nation.

                "Stay close to the candles....the staircase can be treacherous" (-8.38,-8.51)

                by JNEREBEL on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 04:48:10 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

        •  Does separation of church and state (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          caul, AoT, stargaze

          in the United States make Christians weaker or stronger?  State supported religion in Europe has made the Church empty buildings.  

          State supported Judaism in Isreal is making a Isreal as warlike, secular state, Jews who keep nothing of their religion are ????  In a generation?  two?   How will they be Jewish?

    •  By Atacking Jewish BDS Supporters (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, stargaze

      You show the anti-Zionism equals anti-Semitism meme is false. For people who are against anti-Semitism AND for peace and justice it's becoming increasing clear that Zionism itself is is an integral part of the problem. We won't be cowed by false charges of anti-Semitism due to the bravery of people like David.

      In 2012 the General Assembly of the Presbytwrian Church barely voted against a divestment motion. We were heavily lobbied by Jewish groups to do so because supposedly divestment was anti-Semitic. The youth advisory delegates voted overwhelmingly for divestment, though.

      I predict divestment will pass this Summer at our upcoming General Assembly in Detroit. While the study Zionism Unsettled does not officially speak for the PCUSA it does represent a significant opinion within the church. We shall see if it is a majority this Summer.

    •  Can't rec this comment for some reason (0+ / 0-)

      Some comments on this thread are missing rec/hide buttons.

      Can't anyone explain?

      Evolution IS Intelligent Design!

      by msirt on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:05:45 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Many anti-Zionists are antisemitic (0+ / 0-)

      I was arguing with someone over at Huff over the AIPAC about-face who was expressing his anti-Zionist views, but also concluded one of his comments with: "All Israelis are deceitful."

      No question in my mind that he was anti-Jewish, just using Zionism as a foil for that.  That's way too close to the old "All Jews are deceitful" canard.

      Kinda like how Tea Partiers mask their racism.

      Evolution IS Intelligent Design!

      by msirt on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:13:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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