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View Diary: Two Disastrous Programs Collide: Drone Assassination & NSA Mass Surveillance (141 comments)

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  •  ... (13+ / 0-)
    I think it's all a tell as to the lack of attention that the metadata collection program is getting out there in the meatworld.
    It has the attention of the TechWorld -- because it's beginning to affect its bottom line.  And as the tech companies bottom lines are affected, politicians will begin to see a direct correlation in campaign contributions, as they dry up.

    http://www.mediaite.com/...

    Drip...drip...drip...

    all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

    by 4kedtongue on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:23:22 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  (.....) (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      duhban
      We urge the US to take the lead and make reforms that ensure that government surveillance efforts are clearly restricted by law, proportionate to the risks, transparent and subject to independent oversight.
      I think the underwhelming letter pretty much proves my point, not yours.
      Drip...drip...drip...
      Yeah, the "news" that the NSA is engaged in foreign intelligence gathering is going to swing Zuckerberg into pitchfork mode....

      But good luck with the obvious hope that Greenwald leaks something truly important.

      The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

      by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:39:33 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't think... (9+ / 0-)

        ...I made the point that Zuckerberg is nonplussed or concerned in the leastby leaks regarding foreign intelligence gathering.  The point is that there has already been some consternation registered by Tech Leaders regarding domestic metadata gathering techniques (as the letter obviously states), but nice try in your attempt to twist the meaning of my reply to you.

        GGGE rhetoricaly implied that the Snowden documents weren't supposed to address foreign intelligence gathering or military operations, because, I assume, such revelations would expose secret operations that have nothing to do with violations of the 1st and 4th Amendments and such revelations would jeopardize the alleged efficacy of those questionable foregin intelligence gathering and military programs -- which, I assume, he believes would be a bad thing wrt National Security.  The last part of my comment is, admittedly, speculation on my part as to GGGE's intent regarding the implication of his question.

        all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

        by 4kedtongue on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:02:27 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think we're all a little underwelmed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          duhban

          by the supposed drip drip drip.  That's why the attempt to link surveillance with drones...which, of course, DO kill SOMEONE....is made.  

          The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

          by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:06:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  "we're underwhelmed"? (6+ / 0-)

            Speak for yourself.  

            There is no attempt to link metadata collection as it relates to how that metadata is used in drone strikes because there IS a link.  Exposing that link is not an attempt to create create a link -- it is what it is:  a link.  It is how metadata is used in military strikes.  

            The argument the diarist is attempting to make (and succeeding, imo) is that the practice of collecting and utilizing metadata for the purpose of planning and executing drone strikes is ineffective AND counter-productive in the fight against terrorism.

            Another example of how NSA officials who claim that such programs are effective and necessary in the fight against terrorism is questionabe, if not clearly false.

            Drip...drip...drip...

            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

            by 4kedtongue on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:21:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, it's a tell. It shows actual knowlege (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              duhban

              that the hype over metadata isn't being bought, that nobody really thinks it's connected with Skynet or turkey upsidedown totatliciousness,  so it's necessary to confuse it with someone actually being killed.

              BTW, if you actually read what's in the news.....metadata on less than 30% of US calls being collected, per Sunday's NYT.  I'll give you a dollar if you can find that little fact anywhere in the hair on fire diaries by Jessylin or Bobswern today.  

              http://www.nytimes.com/...


              WASHINGTON — The National Security Agency’s once-secret program that is collecting bulk records of Americans’ domestic phone calls is taking in a relatively small portion of the total volume of such calls each day, officials familiar with the program said on Friday.

              While the agency is collecting a large amount of landline phone data, it has struggled to take in cellphone data, which has undergone explosive growth in recent years and presents additional technological hurdles, the officials said.

              The revelation came days after the nation’s secretive Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court approved President Obama’s proposal to impose new restrictions on when and how analysts with the N.S.A. may gain access to the raw database containing the bulk phone records, according to the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.

              The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

              by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:31:04 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I read that article... (8+ / 0-)

                ...and I think you should write a diary about it rather than implying that I'm somehow ill-informed or in need of a syllabus to guide me through this maze of mis-information.

                ;-)

                all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                by 4kedtongue on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:35:39 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Heh. Guess there is a drip, drip, drip. (0+ / 0-)

                  Just not the one you were hoping for.

                  The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                  by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:06:06 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Goodness... (0+ / 0-)

                    ...I hope it's not 'drip...drip...drip'  that would have me making a doctor's appointment.

                    Thanks for the civil exchange.

                    :)

                    all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                    by 4kedtongue on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:21:16 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  emptywheel on nsa's latest misinformation claim (10+ / 0-)

                Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                by greenbastard on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 10:59:53 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  "So they may be true". nt (0+ / 0-)

                  The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                  by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:08:40 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  is that your own misinformation campaign? (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    4kedtongue, cybrestrike, gerrilea

                    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                    by greenbastard on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:45:00 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  I'm quoting from your link. (0+ / 0-)

                      Apology accepted.

                      The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                      by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 12:37:54 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I recommend anyone interested read the links (4+ / 0-)

                        and your clear attempt to distort by omission, and judge your opinions accordingly for as long as they see you on DKOS.

                        Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                        by greenbastard on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 01:04:12 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  "So they may be true". (0+ / 0-)

                          I suggest that you read the links, since you clearly had no idea where I got the phrase from.

                          The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

                          by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 01:14:57 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  priceless (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            4kedtongue, DeadHead, Don midwest

                            Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                            by greenbastard on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 01:29:50 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, it was free. All you had to do was read it. (0+ / 0-)

                            Instead of making me be the first one to actually LOOK at your links.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

                            by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 01:38:34 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Pointless to continue. (4+ / 0-)

                            Just smile and allow those who happen upon this thread to follow the links and make their own determinations.  Obviously, Inland is willfully disregarding the 'distort by omission' portion of your comment, and, as usual, is hung up on some infinitesimally incosequential rhetorical flourish which amounts to little more than saying that someone should have used a semicolon rather than a comma in a sentence, so the entire novel is a piece of shit.  He will never tire of this tactic.

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 01:40:32 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "So it may be true". (0+ / 0-)

                            I suggest that if the author didn't mean that, she shouldn't be cited as authority.

                            Just smile and allow those who happen upon this thread to follow the links and make their own determinations.
                            And of course, you then go to your usual completely made up reasons why nobody should, well, I won't say listen to me because it's empty wheel.  

                            Frankly, I'd be glad if people just let my comments speak for themselves, just as I wish they'd let emptywheel speak for herself.   You're really not necessary.

                            Oh, and good luck with the whole people making their own determinations stuff.  I'm pretty you know that's not going well, for the reasons I've already stated.

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

                            by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 02:09:03 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Yes, Inland... (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            divineorder, DeadHead, BradyB, Don midwest

                            ...we all know that's why you linked to the NYT's article which emptywheel critiques in what greenbastard links to.  I suppose greenbastard just beat you to the punch there.

                            Frankly, I'd be glad if people just let my comments speak for themselves, just as I wish they'd let emptywheel speak for herself.   You're really not necessary.
                            I can't help it if your comments often need to be translated from Newspeak to English.

                            ;-)

                            all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.

                            by 4kedtongue on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 02:25:36 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I have no idea what you're trying to say. (0+ / 0-)

                            But if you believe you're needed to "translate" a statement like "So they may be true", I suggest you might re-think your reference to 1984.  Those people who you pretend to want to make their own determinations?  They'll see right through you.

                            ;]

                            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

                            by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 02:38:53 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

              •  This entire NYT story is complete bullshit... (11+ / 0-)

                ...The story you point to is pure propaganda.

                Anyone following the facts of this story, at all, either realizes this, or they're simply engaged in parrotting government talking points (which the NYT has translated in "...losing all credibility on the subject"), which is exactly what you're doing here. And, it's pretty lame, Inland.

                Here's the REALITY, and it's got nothing to do with your reposting of pure, grossly misleading spin, which amounts to little more than being a stenographer for the government's bullsh*t, too, sadly...

                The Faulty Premise of the 30% Call Data Claims: Legal Limits on Geolocation Data
                Posted on February 9, 2014 by emptywheel

                In this post, I suggested that reports (WSJ, WaPo) that NSA collects only 20 to 30% of US phone records probably don’t account for the records collected under authorities besides Section 215.

                So why did WSJ, WaPo, LAT, and NYT all report on this story at once? Why, after 8 months in which the government has taken the heat for collecting all US call records, are anonymous sources suddenly selectively leaking stories claiming they don’t get (any, the stories suggest) cell data?

                There’s a tall tale the stories collectively tell that probably explains it.

                None of the stories really explain why NSA didn’t start collecting cell data from the start, when, after all, it got no legal review. Nor did they note that, according to this WSJ article which a few of them cited, NSA does get cell data from AT&T and Sprint. But the stories collectively provide two explanations for why — as cell phones came to dominate US telecommunications — NSA didn’t add them to their Section 215 collection (which remember, is different from not including them in their EO 12333 collection).

                First, NSA was too busy responding to crises (their 2009 phone dragnet violations and the Snowden leaks) to integrate cell data…

                "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                by bobswern on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:36:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  thanks, Bob (6+ / 0-)

                  Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                  by greenbastard on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:45:26 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Emptywheel disagrees with you. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  duhban

                  If you think that's a debunking, you're nuts.

                  Instead, you should probably have read the first link, which is to an emptywheel post that says:

                  These reports offer a more credible explanation than Geoffrey Stone’s multiple claims to this effect about why the program misses data. So they may be true.
                  Go argue with her.  

                  The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014.

                  by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 12:42:55 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  for anyone unaware of how this commenter (5+ / 0-)

                    tortures quotes. See his quote above, and here it is in its entirety:

                    These reports offer a more credible explanation than Geoffrey Stone’s multiple claims to this effect about why the program misses data. So they may be true.

                    But I think they instead point to the legal range of authorities NSA uses to collect phone records, not to what records they actually have in their possession.

                    These reports are commenting (though without specifying, or even seeming to be aware they need to specify) on what the government claims it collects under Section 215. These reports are not commenting on what NSA collects under all authorities.

                    In this post I will show why I believe these reports to be credible only in a very narrow sense. In a follow-up post I will point to the legal issues that underlie the Administration’s conflicting claims about what it collects.

                    Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell. --Edward Abbey

                    by greenbastard on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 01:09:15 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •   "So they may be true." That's not a quote? (0+ / 0-)

                      How do you torture THAT?  It's five words.

                      While you take a thoroughly hedged set of guesses to support what the author would like to believe, and add bolding to make it look strident instead of noodling.

                      The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

                      by Inland on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 01:13:39 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

    •  Tech companies haven't been that good at (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      4kedtongue, GoGoGoEverton

      donating to politicians, up to now.  But I bet we will now see them donating to opponents of politicians who support these NSA programs.

      The influence of the [executive] has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished.

      by lysias on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 09:42:13 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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