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View Diary: Black Man in Jasper, Texas Found With Cut Throat And Missing Ear - Ruled ‘Accidental Overdose`. (279 comments)

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    •  Holy f*ck -- our country (36+ / 0-)

      is now owned by the John Birch Society (from whence devolved the Kochs) and at least in the redneck south, it's apparently still run by the KKK.

      I'm waiting to see if Jordan Davis follows in the footsteps of George Zimmerman and walks free, after slaughtering a black Florida teenager in cold blood for playing loud music.

      What century are we in?

      "We can either have democracy in this country or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few. But we can't have both." - Justice Louis Brandeis

      by flitedocnm on Mon Feb 10, 2014 at 11:40:37 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  link should be "Michael Dunn" (10+ / 0-)

        "Tax cuts for the 1% create jobs." -- Republicans, HAHAHA - in China

        by MartyM on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 02:24:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Just different uniform (3+ / 0-)

        As far as I can see, the John Birch Society, the Klan, and the Tea Bagger group are different only in uniform line of B.S., and modus operandi. The goals and supporters are just about the same. Current Republicans vote the same as their Tea Bagger element so I guess for all practical purposes, I can throw them in there too.

        •  I can't say that the tea partiers I know are the (4+ / 0-)

          same.
          Surely there is a vein in common. I know tea partiers who are not overtly racist (none of us can speak about another's subconscious racism) and who'd never abide by something like this.

          I think it is wise not to paint with too wide a brush. I know many people feel the Tea Party is mainly racists, period. But the racists stick out. At a tea party gathering say 1/5th of the signs are racist. Quite a few of the people there may not be.

          I"m in MA. Maybe our tea partiers are different.

          •  All Tea Party members are racists. Period. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Horace Boothroyd III
            •  really? (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              43north

              or snark?

              I've discovered this phenomenon about human beings rather late in life--the astounding capacity for people to delude themselves.

              Note that I did say/believe(I may not have been completely clear) that it is possible that all tea party members are subconsciously racist but not overtly. I think that the majority of white Americans have subconscious racism to some degree--I think the implicit attitude studies say that it's at 70%, iirc, per their testing. I know I have subconscious racism, being almost 50 and raised in the US. I work to make it conscious so I can purge it/talk back to it.

              Anyway, I have met tea partiers who are not overtly racist. I am aware of that trope "he's not racist his best friend is Black". But I know a tea partier who is married to a Black woman and has Black children and he is NOT overtly racist. He was raised by far libertarian NH "we do not pay income tax" types. And yes, his best friend who is also his brother in law, is Black.

              He seems to be in denial of the racism in the Tea Party. It is as if his psyche cannot bring the two together. His wife married him before the tea party existed BUT the man's views, according to her, have not changed. His politics aren't a perfect match to them but are substancially especially the small government part. This guy has a black belt in karate, hunts, and is a prepper. Is disgusted by Republicans.s

              I think though my post leaned a bit farther than I believe. I believe that racism is a main vein and attraction of the Tea Party for the majority of them. SOme of them, I think, are not overtly racist but are substancially subconsciously racist.

              I just think we should be very accurate when we call every single member of their group racist. I do not think it is necessarily true and I also think it is not constructive not to understand a movement that is largely our enemy.

      •  I Hope Jordan Davis is Fully Freed (0+ / 0-)

        Show the rest of the country up front and in our face that white on black murder is now fully legal in Florida and the lowest level of public defense can easily obtain an acquittal.

        Hopefully then the media will do it's job and point out the background of exactly how and why murder became legal in Florida and drive a nail in ALEC's coffin.

      •  Actually, (10+ / 0-)

        The John Birch Society devolved from the Kochs, not the other way around. The father of the present brothers was a founder.

        "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself."........ "The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." (yeah, same guy.)

        by sidnora on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 11:58:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  it's a very different case from zimmerman (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Silvia Nightshade, MaryKane, 43north

        1) Zimmerman shot TM at night, mild rain.

        2) GZ was in his neighborhood, (TM was moving in).

        3) GZ was on the phone to 911 and had requested police.

        4) A fight had started between the two.

        5) 2 witnesses listed TM as prevailing in the fight.

        6) GZ stayed on the scene, talked to detectives, cooperated.

        7) GZ had not been drinking

        8) The fatal shot was at Point-Blank range.

        -----

        in the Dunn/Davis case

        1) Dunn had been drinking, hard that day.

        2) It was daylight.

        3) They were at a gas station, with lots of witnesses, support, help available.

        4) Dunn Fled the scene,

        5) There is no credible report of weapons on Davis.

        Even if Davis had bad attitude, and many teenagers do, there appears to be nothing for "Reasonable fear of Bodily Harm".

        Dunn has all the "Consience of Guilt" and nothing of innocence.

        Dunn has a lot of hoops to jump through, he's got to argue there were guns, Davis flashed one, and then it was hidden.
        That means he needs "Witnesses who saw Davis with a gun", or "Photo Evidence" or " Something consistent"....

        Dunn can get up and testify to it, directly "I saw a Chrome Gun", but he's then on the stand. A good Prosecutor will tear him up.

        It's possible to pick apart GZ's testimony, but, all of his actions were "Consistent" with "Clean Heart" and that's what the jury saw.  (I personally think GZ is an idiot, and he got into a situation he had to shoot his way out of)

        Dunn, is going to have a much tougher time.

        •  I don't think GZ had to shoot his way out (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dube, 43north

          ie had to, in that situation. He had a choice. I don't want to leave that unsaid.

          •  certainly he could have taken a beating (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            43north

            but at that point, it was a close contact fight, which
            he was losing.

            most people won't, not if they have a weapon.

            •  Better yet, Zimmerman could have been (0+ / 0-)

              "neighborhood WATCH" not neighborhood commando.

              •  the jury and the local cops (0+ / 0-)

                didn't see his actions as beyond the pale.

                I think he's a jerk and a wanna-be, but,
                i don't think he went out with intent to kill
                Martin or with Reckless indifference.

                •  I think he had reckless indifference (0+ / 0-)

                  he labelled TM as a bad guy "punk" and his actions all around indicated that.
                  He did not approach, I think, TM wondering what he was doing in the neighborhood...normal person would be watchful wary even call police but KNOW they need to at least appear to the stranger as giving the benefit of the doubt.

                  To do that you simply DO NOT run after a person. TM must have felt he was being chased...as one does if one starts running and someone who's been staring at you runs after you.

                  THAT is very threatening. GZ set up the dynamic and I believe that was reckless and stupid since he had a gun. I wonder if he'd run after TM if he hadn't had a gun. Yes I get  per him he ran after TM to "see where he was going'. STILL you run after someone that person THINKS he's being chased.

                  Sets up a threat. Anyone who breaks into a jog run in the dark in the rain, someone staring at you then starts running after you, you think that is a threat.

                  GZ--recklessly indifferent. You can be recklessly indifferent out of stupidity and/or being stuck in your own worldview/perceptual bias. He could not, in the moment, hold onto the fact that PERHAPS this Black kid he didn't know was up to know good OR ALSO he was someone's visiting friend /relative (it was a mixed race neighborhood so that was very plausable as well). GZ was reckless in his assumptions...

                  It lead to a death.

                  •  two bad assumptions (0+ / 0-)

                    1) GZ that TM didn't belong there, he was a guest
                    at his fathers GF's place

                    2) TM that he could kick the crap out of GZ.

                    the audio says TM made him as following him, started running, but No way GZ fat doughboy that he is runs down a skinny, in shape teenager.

                    TM was a block and a half from his father and friendly adult.

                    There is a 4 minute gap in the timelines, either TM decided to stay in a shadow or he looped back around on GZ and kicked his ass.

                     would have been better off staying in his truck
                    and TM would have been better off running for shelter.

                    •  The audio does not say that TM "made" (0+ / 0-)

                      GZ follow him. . It is one thing, a reasonable one, to speculate a legit timing gap. Another to put spin on something most people did not perceive and was not even argued, iirc, by either the defense or the prosecution as far as I know. You can't make someone run after you unless you verbally request it or gesture and we have no evidence of either even though we have one party, the observing and reporting one, taped on a phone line in part narrating in real time what is going on.

                      I can't even imagine how someone could "make" someone chase them. We know that GZ was on the phone looking intently at TM because he is describing what the "suspect" looked like in real time to the dispatcher. So, we know that TM, if he looked at GZ, would see a guy he didn't know watching him. It isn't that weird for a 17 year old at night in the rain to take off running at the point.  Having someone you don't know watching you as they talk on the phone is creepy, at night in the dark.I've never even heard that argument from GZ apologists.

                      I think you are not looking at this from what TM saw GZ do. Your view is slanted from GZ point of view. Imagine what it looked like to TM and you get why he might run.

                      If you look at the police station video on GZ, fyi, you will see he was in much better shape, looks a normal weight. He ballooned (back) up hugely the year after the killing.

                      I know I won't convince you, or open your mind I'm pretty sure. You seem to think you have it figured out so are seeing data to support your scenario, unless I get you wrong. Myself, I don't know the details well enough to have a formed some parts of a scenario in my mind and I don't have the need to have it figured out. A number of things could have happened but TM making GZ run after him is not one of them. More likely, the kid saw someone looking at him and bolted. We have to ascribe normal human behavior to both of them.

        •  None of that matters. There is no requirement (0+ / 0-)

          under SYG/expanded self defense to stay at the scene and/or call the police.  In Florida the only thing that matters is whether the state can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not see something that looked like a gun which is damn near impossible.  It doesn't matter what everyone else saw, only what he did.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 06:30:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  no but it speaks to "Guilty Conscience". (0+ / 0-)

            actually, it's going to be up to him to show
            "He was reasonably in fear of harm".

            I'm not a Florida criminal lawyer but i was watching
            Al Jazeera and they had a criminal lawyer on.

            He was pointing out the Defense needed to put
            Dunn up on the stand to talk, and they were just
            really scoring a lot on him.

            Lets see what happens here.

            •  Wrong. Unlike in many (most?) states (0+ / 0-)

              in Florida SYG/self defense is not an affirmative defense.  That means that while in many/most states the defendant must show (by a preponderance of the evidence) that he was reasonably in fear of harm in Florida it is the prosecution that must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not in fear of harm.  Good luck proving that.

              You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

              by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 12:06:34 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  it's a shifting burden thing. (0+ / 0-)

                in any self defense case,  the  case switches from
                1) Did this happen
                2) Did you do that.

                to

                1) It did Happen and
                2) I did do it,  but
                3) I was reasonably in fear of my life, and once they
                show that "Reasonably"

                the State now has to overcome that and show
                "Defendant unreasonably used deadly force"

                So you have these sorts of pre-trial things, and the order of the case moves around.

                I wouldn't want to say Dunn has a cakewalk.

                As much as people disliked Zimmerman, and as
                bad as his case looked, it was real clean on a defense
                POV, and the jury didn't need to sit more then 4 hours.

                Dunn has got a real tough problem.  No Gun.
                Video Tape of chunks of the encounter that don't show anything positive. Fleeing the scene.  Going ordering pizza.
                Not Telling his GF about a "Gun" until the next day.

                Boy, talk about the "He's standing over the body of the victim, defaming his character" thing.

                Had Dunn, Stayed on the site, well, then he would be a Regular guy,  had he stayed on the site, he might have discovered a gun, which he claims he saw,

                •  That is not true, the defense does (0+ / 0-)

                  not have to present any evidence of self defense in Florida, all the defense has to do is claim "self defense" and from there it is all on the prosecution.  In most states you are correct, the defendant does have to provide some evidence that it was self defense which the prosecution can then attack but not in Florida.  In other words, unlike in most other states there is no burden shifting when it comes to self defense.

                  You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                  by Throw The Bums Out on Wed Feb 12, 2014 at 03:18:01 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

        •  GZ was a straight-up murderer. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          indie17, Ronald England

          A "good guy with a gun". Except he wasn't a good guy, he was a bloodthirsty ninja wannabe.

          End of the fucking story.

          i can't believe people are still trying to make some sort of excuse for the guy.

          To put the torture behind us is, inevitably, to put it in front of us.

          by UntimelyRippd on Tue Feb 11, 2014 at 08:33:01 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Dunn vs Zimmerman cases (0+ / 0-)

          It's weird because I had kinda the opposite outlook on these two cases than you seem to. I feel like Zimmerman is a murderer who should be in prison for stalking and ultimately killing a kid. Dunn, on the other hand, (if he's telling the truth about the dialogue that went on between himself & Davis at least) seems to have a valid argument for feeling that he was being threatened and defending himself.

          In a rather poorly titled story from LA Times  (http://www.latimes.com/...), Dunn said that he unmistakably heard one of the people in the car say "I should kill him" and then Davis began to get out of his vehicle while saying "You're dead".

          Now, do I believe that he saw a gun when one wasn't found? Pretty dubious there. If I had to wager a guess, Dunn, or potentially his lawyer, came up with the idea to say that he thought he had seen one, because Florida's laws are ridiculous enough that that's all it takes to get you off the hook. But again, if that was in fact what Davis said to him in that parking lot, then I would certainly understand him feeling threatened/in danger. I think I would if a stranger parked next to me said those things to me.

          This is definitely tragic and pointless when the situation began over something as stupid as the volume of someone's music, but I ultimately feel that if this man's testimony about what was said is true, he had far more of a reason to feel he needed to defend himself than Zimmerman, who stalked Trayvon Martin- WHO REPEATEDLY TRIED TO RUN AWAY- until Martin felt he had to defend himself, then Zimmerman killed him for doing so.

          •  see the problem is. (0+ / 0-)

            you are imputing actions to TM that the record
            never showed.

            Yes TM's GF said that much later at trial  but she
            sure never said that to the police early.

            Now given the NSA has the conversations, in Utah,
            the thing would be to get the TM phone calls, and
            pull them out.  

            Dunn had lots of options, he could have run his window
            up, he could have driven around the front of the convenience store, he could have used his car as a shield/ram (Granted that too could be deadly force) but,

            Dunn had been drinking, so his judgement was impaired,
            and all of his actions were consistent with the flight of a guilty man.

            GZ was running almost continous to 911, so we have his
            audio, instant impressions and a timeline there.
            You sure don't have that in Dunn.

            Had Dunn called 911, even seconds after the shooting,
            he'd have a much better story.

            •  imputing actions? (0+ / 0-)

              "you are imputing actions to TM that the record
               never showed."

              Actually, no I'm not.

              That Trayvon Martin was trying to get away from Zimmerman wasn't only confirmed by his girlfriends testimony, but also by the audio recording with dispatch that you keep referring to as well as an interview with Sean Hannity on Fox News. Zimmerman told the dispatch officer "He's running" and when asked by dispatch if he was following him, Zimmerman responded "Yeah". They then told him "We don't need you to do that". Later in the interview with Hannity, Zimmerman said he had followed Trayvon in order to get an address to give to dispatch (which I find about as believable as Dunn having seen a gun) and saw him "skipping, going away quickly". Also of note in the tapes is Zimmerman saying " "these assholes, they always get away." Only problem is, Martin wasn't one of "these assholes"..he was just a kid on his way back home from the corner store.

              It's pretty clear that Zimmerman was following him, against the directions of the police no less. That Trayvon Martin initially tried to get away from Zimmerman is heavily supported by the evidence we have.

              As for options, I agree with you. Both Dunn and Zimmerman had options they could have taken which would have prevented these incidents..it's part of what makes them so tragic. Nonetheless, I still feel that Dunn had a valid reason to feel threatened IF his testimony about the dialogue is accurate. When it comes to Trayvon, Zimmerman was the aggressor in that situation who put him in danger, then followed Martin when he tried to get away, then ultimately killed him when he decided to fight back instead of running AGAIN.

              As for Dunn drinking that day, I don't really see what that has to do with anything? In my eyes, that doesn't change the validity of Dunn feeling in danger if a person says "You're dead" and starts to exit a vehicle next to him moments after someone in that vehicle said "I should kill this guy". I'd also point out that Zimmerman was never even tested for drugs or alcohol when he was taken into custody.

              Would a call to 911 after the shooting have been a better idea? Probably. Still, him leaving the scene is a far cry from "all of his actions were consistent with the flight of a guilty man." Flight or fight are the 2 classic responses to moments of extreme stress, and there a number of reasons he may have left. If he did indeed feel in danger, getting himself out of the area would actually be quite reasonable wouldn't it? Or, perhaps he just made a bad call..as you yourself noted, his judgment was impaired.

              •  clouded judgement (0+ / 0-)
                As for Dunn drinking that day, I don't really see what that has to do with anything? In my eyes, that doesn't change the validity of Dunn feeling in danger if a person says "You're dead" and starts to exit a vehicle next to him moments after someone in that vehicle said "I should kill this guy". I'd also point out that Zimmerman was never even tested for drugs or alcohol when he was taken into custody.
                Drinking points to reduced judgement, plus a
                tendency to be more aggressive.

                Zimmerman never said he had been drinking or
                was otherwise impaired, so it wasn't a question.

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