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View Diary: Obama Administration Abuses National Security, Secrecy Powers (196 comments)

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  •  This is what 'we' are now (6+ / 0-)

    (possibly same as it ever was but these days more unabashedly so) and it seems doubtful that there is much will to actually change course. Certainly not in this admin. or congress. Civil liberties are so quaintly 19th C. and anyway,the power lies in the private sphere...which owns the government so why worry?

    "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

    by tardis10 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 at 09:46:42 AM PST

    •  Actually, I'd argue "same as it ever was" (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      tardis10, poligirl, JVolvo, joe shikspack

      We've ALWAYS been this way--its just that a lot of us like to hide behind the American exceptionalism that we're somehow the good guys with the whit hats.  

      You can go back and review every Democratic administration and find abuses similar to or worse than the ones in this diary.  Secrecy, abuse of civil liberties and civil rights, turning a blind eye to the abuse of power by the security apparatus--it's all there.  Whether it's J. Edgar tapping MLK's phones or FDR throwing Japanese Americans into internment camps or Wilson turning a blind eye to Jim Crow laws, it's been a constant in our society.

      Your statement, "Civil liberties are so quaintly 19th c.", which I understand was a casual remark, is ahistorical--we did not respect the civil liberties of much of our population in the 19th century.  

      To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

      by dizzydean on Fri Feb 14, 2014 at 10:37:23 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Agreed although I was thinking (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poligirl, dizzydean, JVolvo, joe shikspack

        about the idea (ideals) of civil liberties in the speechifying (advertising) of that age. Less the lived experience in the USA and elsewhere. As for same as it ever was vs. something different is happening here and now...well, my opinion on that varies depending on which ,umm,PRISM I use.

        "George RR Martin is not your bitch" ~~ Neil Gaiman

        by tardis10 on Fri Feb 14, 2014 at 10:49:51 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  when could the military indefinitely detain anyone (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Johnny Q, joe shikspack

        on American soil under no charges in the past ? I guess not ever (under the law) hence the need to pass such a law.

        That just passed into law in recent years and I missed the New York Times's stories in the past where they discussed that current President's 'Kill List' where he played judge jury and ordered executions.

        Got names for past President's ordering force feeding prisoners like what has been happening in GITMO and is against international law. That is current.

        What past administrations have such a scorecard as this...?

        without the ants the rainforest dies

        by aliasalias on Fri Feb 14, 2014 at 11:06:05 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Depends on who the "someone" was (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          joe shikspack

          See:  Native Americans and the US Cavalry during the "Indian Wars" for everything and then some in terms of Gitmo/forced feedings/no due process.  

          How about the atrocities committed by US troops in the Philippines, WWII, Korea and Vietnam?  Including against prisoners?  A good book for the Pacific conflict is War Without Mercy: Race and Power in the Pacific War.  

          Presidential kill list?  Ever go back and read about the targeted assassinations the CIA was involved in during the Cold War?

          As for your scorecards, well, all you have to do is look at the track record of The School of the Americas.  

          Nothing new under the sun...

          To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

          by dizzydean on Fri Feb 14, 2014 at 11:31:49 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  now I feel better about Indefinite Detention by (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            joe shikspack

            the military of anyone here in American for reasons that must be kept secret. This is not a dangerous and very new shift in power away from the people. Right.

            This alone is something that should alarm more people than it seems to at this time and that is what worries me the most. I thought about a bunch of examples like those you mentioned right after I hit the 'post' button but this particular 'change' stands out as the most dangerous as it is sitting there like a loaded weapon for any administration to fire. Right into the heart of Democracy.

            without the ants the rainforest dies

            by aliasalias on Fri Feb 14, 2014 at 04:42:09 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  You misread my point. The point I am making is (0+ / 0-)

              that the language of "this is worse than anything EVER in American history" is faulty.  It's hyperbolic and takes away from the legitimacy of your argument.  We've done many worse things--even genocide--in our history, so each of these things needs to be put into perspective.

              Additionally, I would argue that the hyperbole surrounding recent events itself smacks of exceptionalism--that we really are better than the present, which itself is tied to a belief that at some time in the past we were better than the present.  Both of these fail upon a review of our history.

              That's what Zinn was trying to get at in his People's History--that we're not as wonderful as we make ourselves out to be and never have been.

              To be free and just depends on us. Victor Hugo.

              by dizzydean on Sat Feb 15, 2014 at 06:55:46 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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