Skip to main content

View Diary: Michael Dunn's Defense Did Invoke "Stand Your Ground" (161 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  This diary is not about any of your reasons (9+ / 0-)

    why you might shoot to kill an unarmed person, or what you teach your students in your NRA approved shooting classes.

    The diary is about the SYG defense in two Florida killings of unarmed black teens.

    Of course you can write a diary about any reason you may find persuasive to shoot unarmed teens.

    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

    by LilithGardener on Mon Feb 17, 2014 at 10:02:04 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  X2 (3+ / 0-)

      nosotros no somos estúpidos

      by a2nite on Mon Feb 17, 2014 at 10:11:57 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  My reasons? I have reasons to shoot (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tom Seaview, DavidMS, ER Doc

      someone who is unarmed and not an active lethal threat to me? Someone should've told me.

      The jury instructions (for Zimmerman) were faulty and didn't take into account whether Zimmerman was an innocent victim of the attack or not.

      Oh and this is wrong:

      Strolla later added of the law, "It's not because I wrote it. It's not cause I like it. We're not here to change it and we're not here to fight it. We're here to apply it."
      It's called jury nullification. Juries can change laws.
      •  The jury instructions weren't faulty (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poco

        They were the same boilerplate recitation of the relevant statutes as used in Dunn.  

        If you mean the law is faulty, then I agree.  But then again, Florida isn't unique in that.  There are forty eight other states with equally bad self-defense laws on the books.

    •  Oh, and when you quote my comment (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Tom Seaview, Kasoru, ER Doc

      and say the deserve to die, you get that response.

      No one, as bad as they get, deserves to die. My comment about stopping vs death goes to that point. Do I shed a tear when those violent felonious criminals get shot? No. Would I if I ended up shooting said violent felonious criminal myself? Probably.

    •  Am I the only one perplexed by the persistence (6+ / 0-)

      of this view. The self-deputized asserting that anyone with a gun has earned a JJE degree.

      More criminals are getting killed in justifiable homicides.
      Sourced above.

      Is it willful blindness?
      Intellectual laziness?
      Or just stubborn myopic defensiveness?

      It's hard to tell.

      "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

      by LilithGardener on Mon Feb 17, 2014 at 10:22:20 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Good job not responding to anything I said. nt (5+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Kasoru, Tom Seaview, DavidMS, ER Doc, FrankRose
      •  Let's look at SYG as a whole organism. (8+ / 0-)

        Persons doing criminal acts, were at one time shot, stabbed or beaten by their victims. Prior to Castle or SYG being law.

        Prosecutors who were true-believers, aggressively sought indictment and conviction of the intended victims.
        Reason:  YOU are NOT A COP.
        Be a good victim.
        Take a photo*, make a report. (or be a pretty corpse)  
        Take NO direct action.

        Grand Jury fail to indict?  
        Empanel a new one and give them less facts.  
        Still no indictment?
        Lie.  
        Person "B", enticed this injured or deceased person "A", into this encounter.  
        You must indict.

        Do the happy dance, you got an indictment.  
        Now talk to the press, get a conviction on the 6 o'clock news, months before the trial date.
        Hope for murder, settle for manslaughter with depraved indifference.
        You shot someone, in your house?  
        You never thought twice about injuring your children - did you?
        Felony endangerment of a minor.  Assault with a deadly weapon.  Attempted murder.

        Plead guilty and we won't fight your parents seeking custody of your children.   Fight the charges?
        You'll never see the outside of a prison - or your children, EVER again.

        Just-as that prosecutorial "zeal" (read as power-trip) bred injustice, so does the overly-broad Stand Your Ground.

        IF we look to New York State, Article 35 "Defenses of Justification" has been a long-established standard of law.
        Neither prosecutors, nor those persons party to the incident, have overly-broad authority to circumvent any semblance of justice.

        Can you still get an indictment of a Ham Sandwich in NYS?
        Sure.  
        The fact remains a prosecutor has no obligation to prepare a fair reading of all facts - only those favorable to the prosecution.

        The defense, in applying Article 35, means this may find an early summary judgement, and dismissal.
        If that fails, jury instructions as to the letter of the law, often means you as a victim, will not be held scapegoat of an overly zealous prosecutor, bent on making an example of you.
        New York has a limited duty to retreat; which is null and void in certain, strictly defined, circumstances.

        *of course, one should probably obtain written permission from your assailant, or better yet a model release of image rights.

        •  I don't know if (0+ / 0-)

          legitimate self-defense slayings exceed or fall short of the reported tally, but I have no problem demanding even the morally inculpable prove at least by preponderance of evidence the substance of their defense.  And if that means someone who would be completely innocent under today's law loses their freedom, so be it.  It's the price we pay for a less bloody society, and a price we can afford with judicious prison and criminal justice reform.

          •  It's late... (5+ / 0-)

            perhaps I'm not reading your comment correctly.

            I'm incapable of coming to a conclusion other than:

            If you're so-called "innocent", under current laws?
            Even-if you're morally inculpable, and you kill or injure someone?  
            You're not beyond reproach.
            "Do unto others..."
            "Turn the other cheek."

            Society, in order to be less violent, less bloody, must punish all who resort to violence.
            Regardless of currently legal circumstances.
            That proof of threat, must include proof of serious harm and/or death.

            In law enforcement, we called this "first blood" that you needed to be cut, or beaten nearly unconscious before you could draw your weapon on an assailant, not in-possession of a firearm.
            It was a concept well known to certain criminal elements, which cost police officer lives.

            As I said at the beginning, it may just be my misread, due to the hour.

            •  No, you're not misreading me (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              43north

              I really believe that if someone kills another, and he cannot by a preponderance of evidence show it was self-defense, he should be found guilty.  The measure by which he fulfills is burden is subject to debate.  Personally, I believe if the state shows that the defendant did not adhere to a rigorous standard of use of force we'd ideally expect out of law enforcement, then the state should prevail.

              It's not quite "guilty until proven innocent," but it places a serious burden of persuasion on the defendant.  Think Ohio on steroids.

              •  so the situation is he said she said, he's dead, (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tom Seaview, Kasoru, 43north, KVoimakas

                she says he was attacking her but there is no concrete proof of anything either way.

                Are you actually saying that in this situation she should face charges?

                What if he has a record?
                What if the dirt is scuffled a bit like maybe there might have been a struggle but nothing concrete?
                What if she's a little scuffed up?

                What if...

                Where is your line that the presumption of innocence goes away and a person has to prove their innocence?

                What is the line we abandon our system of jurisprudence over and how many other laws should we extend it to?

                 because once that wall is breached, there's just too many way to save the children to not make a person prove they didn't do whatever you are accusing them of......

                Vaya con Dios Don Alejo
                I want to die a slave to principles. Not to men.
                Emiliano Zapata

                by buddabelly on Mon Feb 17, 2014 at 11:54:39 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, (0+ / 0-)

                  the presumption of innocence doesn't go away if the defendant doesn't stipulate to the slaying, but a self-defense claim does require that much admission.  Other affirmative defense--say, an insanity defense--do place a burden of persuasion on the defendant.  So what's wrong with doing as Ohio does and including justifiable use of force in that category?  If you have to prove that you were legally incapable of being held responsible for your actions by mental defect, you should have to prove that you were legally justified in killing another human being when you were in your right mind.

              •  If we * only * have to live-up to the Police (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kasoru

                standard of conduct?

                I don't see the problem.

                Thank you for clarification.  Any degree of snark detected is at the situation, not your reply.

                •  "we'd *ideally* expect out of law enforcement" (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  43north

                  Half of justifiable homicides reported in the UCR Supplementary are at the hand of law enforcement; I have no doubt that we're falling short holding the police to account.

      •  JJE degree? What's that? (0+ / 0-)

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site