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View Diary: I can Kill you if I want to (266 comments)

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  •  Tamp Bay Times did some research on SYG. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Vet63, FrankRose

    link

    It is a few months out of date.

    When you look at the accused/victim, with the accused being black, you get the following numbers:

    Victim:
    White: 3 Convicted, 4 justified, 3 pending
    Black: 8 Convicted, 18 justified, 3 pending
    Hispanic: 1 justified
    Ratio: 23 justified to 40 total
    58% justified

    Accused: Hispanic
    Victim:
    White: 3 Convicted, 2 justified
    Black: 3 justified
    Hispanic: 2 justified
    Ratio: 7 justified to 10 total
    70% justified

    Looks like SYG works for more than just when the accused is white.

    Look at the raw numbers when the accused is white as well.

    Victim:
    White: 26 Convicted, 34 justified, 4 pending
    Black: 1 Convicted, 6 justified, 4 pending
    Hispanic: 1 Convicted, 4 justified, 1 pending
    Ratio: 44 justified to 81 total
    54% justified

    Do you think all of these justified instances were wrong?

    •  KVoimakas (5+ / 0-)

      Thank you for posting such detail on this  law. I would have to read every case before I could answer your question. I stand
      by my diary. Two studies by colleges,which I did not talk
      about, says murder is up because of this law. I can"t  try
      to justify anything Mr.Dunn did. He is a racist. Are some
      people of color racist as well? Of course there are.
      Black people are not safe in Florida.
      Mike

      Social activist, nutrition and exercise advice,long distance runner, Writer.

      by Vet63 on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 10:42:43 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  So, for whites and blacks (26+ / 0-)

      Your numbers show the following:

      If you are white and you shoot a black person, you are 6 times more likely to get off than to be convicted.

      If you are black and you shoot a white person, you are 1.3 times more likely to get off than to be convicted.

      This suggests a clear and obvious legal bias in favor of white shooters.

      Furthermore:

      If you are white and shoot a white person, you are 1.3 times more likely to get off than to get convicted.

      If you are black and shoot a black person, you are 2.25 more likely to get off than to be convicted.

      The clear and unmistakable conclusion is that when a black person is shot in Florida, regardless of the color of the shooter, the killing will be excused (no conviction will result).

      Please explain how these numbers are not clear evidence of a racial bias in the way Florida treats both murderers who use a gun, and those who are murdered with a gun.

      "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

      by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 10:56:18 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Hugh Jim Bissell (7+ / 0-)

        Thank you for all of these figures. You have made my point.
        Thanks,
        Mike

        Social activist, nutrition and exercise advice,long distance runner, Writer.

        by Vet63 on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 11:06:10 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  And if you're Hispanic, you almost get (0+ / 0-)

        a free pass, right? 70% justified.

      •  they are not evidence (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Vet63, LilithGardener, OrganicChemist

        because the sample size is far too small to prove a significant difference in outcomes.

        Also it is quite possible that the difference in outcomes results from the differences in the circumstances of the shootings. Any residual racial effect should be sought after accounting for the circumstances.

        •  Partially Correct (7+ / 0-)

          You are correct that the small sample size and the data that is old and incomplete suggest no hard and fast conclusions should be drawn from this data set.

          (FWIW - "significant differences" has a technical meaning in the study of statistics.  Strictly speaking, statistical significance does not depend solely on sample size).

          Because KVoikmakas was willing to "go there" and use this small data set to draw conclusions, I was willing to play along.

          "The fool doth think he is wise: the wise man knows himself to be a fool" - W. Shakespeare

          by Hugh Jim Bissell on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 11:53:28 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  toxin (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LilithGardener, liberalguy

          The Martin and Davis trials should show that black people are not safe to be around White Men. What other conclusion can you draw? Maybe if we have 50 trials like these,you might
          say,your right!
          I don't want ONE more Black child to die in this state!
          Mike
          .

          Social activist, nutrition and exercise advice,long distance runner, Writer.

          by Vet63 on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 11:57:35 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Thank you (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vet63

          But that won't stop spouting these false statistics for the next three months.

          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

          by fcvaguy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 08:48:34 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  fcvaguy (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            LilithGardener

            I can"t tell,are you saying Vet63(me) used false statistics?
            Mike

            Social activist, nutrition and exercise advice,long distance runner, Writer.

            by Vet63 on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 10:18:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No, here (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LilithGardener

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              The data sample he's using is way too small to come to the conclusions he's gone. Clearly a case of shaping numbers to suit the desired conclusion.

              KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

              by fcvaguy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 11:34:01 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  What were my conclusions in that comment? (0+ / 0-)
                Looks like SYG works for more than just when the accused is white.
                ...
                [question]
                Do you think all of these justified instances were wrong?
                •  Your conclusions were silly (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LilithGardener

                  The point is, your sample is way too small to draw ANY conclusions. Its called statistically insignifant. Do the math and tell us what your sample error and margin of error are and your percent confidence.

                  SYG is a bad law. If unarmed kids are getting murdered in the name of self defense, thats enough evidence for me. And, when it comes to our Justice system, I don't believe in "acceptable collateral damage" as your faulty conclusions seem to imply.

                  All for what? So you can carry as many guns as you want, as many types as you want, whereever you want and claim to be a responsible gun owner until someone pisses you off with loud music or disrespects you somehow?

                  Humanity has done well with 700 years of "duty to retreat". We don't need you selfishly recreating Western Civilization.

                  KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                  by fcvaguy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 12:14:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  My conclusion was that it wasn't just white people (0+ / 0-)

                    that "got away with it" under SYG laws.

                    •  KV, just stop (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Glen The Plumber

                      You drew alot of conclusions in that post, posturing what the data from the TB article was saying. You were wrong.

                      And you're wrong to defend SYG. Defending SYG is offensive to 99% of liberals.

                      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                      by fcvaguy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 01:06:05 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I drew one conclusion and asked a question. (0+ / 0-)

                        Perhaps you should read the comment actually says instead of reading into the comment.

                        You're wrong to oppose a strong, individual right to keep and bear arms. See how that works?

                      •  His conclusions reveal a dystopian approach (2+ / 1-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Glen The Plumber, WakeUpNeo
                        Hidden by:
                        Tom Seaview

                        to public life. The words chosen were black&white thinking, "it works."

                        To people with that attitude, institutional racism that enables   people to get away with killing, he sees that and conludes
                        a  + b = it's working.

                        A = more concealed carry permits
                        B = more killers getting away with it

                        "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                        by LilithGardener on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 07:57:45 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  I thought his response (3+ / 0-)

                          was breathtaking.

                          ME:  And you're wrong to defend SYG. Defending SYG is offensive to 99% of liberals.

                          HIM: You're wrong to oppose a strong, individual right to keep and bear arms. See how that works?

                          He sees SYG as part of his "strong, individual right to keep and bear arms.

                          I simply don't know how to unpack that. How on earth can you equate a belief that you have the right to kill someone under something less than what we used to understand as self defense, with the right to bear arms?

                          KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

                          by fcvaguy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 08:18:04 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  No. (8+ / 0-)

                          Like I mentioned before, you shoot to stop. More concealed carry permits means more criminals committing violent felonies get stopped, then I consider that a good thing.

                          To say that I support institutional racism or approve of it at any level is just flat out wrong.

                          •  It's not just wrong... (8+ / 0-)

                            ...it is an intentional lie -- the accusation of racism is becoming a pretty common tactic around here.

                            Apparently, there are those who cannot support their stances with logic or facts, so they stoop to these dishonest tactics.

                            It means you're right and they know you're right, they just don't want anyone else to see your argument, because it may well lose them yet more support for their stance -- they see support for it falling off continually, so these are the tactics they are reduced to.

                            "No amount of belief makes something a fact." --James Randi

                            by theatre goon on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 07:16:43 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Intentional lying is HRable. (0+ / 0-)

                            If you really believe that I intentionally lied, then you should HR, no?

                             Or are you afraid I can easily gather dozens of similar accusations you make when you disagree or purposely misread a comment?

                            Time to droop that donut, else I'm calling your bluff for the bully tactic that it is. You were summoned here to rescue someone after their house of cards argument collapsed.

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 08:55:23 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I don't support HR-ing anyone in 2A (6+ / 0-)

                            threads. It's a moot point. If it's an appropriate HR, it just gets uprated anyway and we're labeled as those who pile on.

                            So no HR. Even when it's justified.

                          •  I've written before that I'm not a fan (0+ / 0-)

                            of the HR system and that it's better in most cases to simply explain what's objectionable. But you actually discourage your followers from abiding by cite guidelines?

                            That's new? Or is there some other reason you actually thought you need to spell it out here?

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 10:09:00 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  RKBA does not have a policy on HRing. (4+ / 0-)

                            I personally don't support HRing anyone in 2A threads.

                          •  Another of your areas of expertise (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            FrankRose, Kasoru, theatre goon, Vet63

                            "bully tactics."

                            Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

                            by Tom Seaview on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 09:57:06 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's another empty accusation... (4+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kasoru, Tom Seaview, gerrilea, FrankRose

                            ...to level at those they have no real response to.

                            It's gotten so common that it has lost any real substance that it ever had -- if you call everyone a bully, then the actual bullies fade into the background.

                            It's kinda sad that they can't see that...

                            "No amount of belief makes something a fact." --James Randi

                            by theatre goon on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 11:18:49 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Tom Seaview (0+ / 0-)

                            Normally,I respond to every message. I am enjoying the debate,and will stay out of the way.
                            Mike

                            Social activist, nutrition and exercise advice,long distance runner, Writer.

                            by Vet63 on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 01:21:54 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Lilith calling for HRs (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Tom Seaview, Kasoru, theatre goon

                            In other news, the sun rose in the east today.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 10:01:45 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Ok, we're up to six (0+ / 0-)

                            gun enthusiasts who all just happened to helicopter in to this days old thread in a 2 hour window ... Hmmm? Were you summoned? Or do you just follow KV around and pile in when he's brilliant?

                            TG's accusation uprated by:

                            KVoimakas, Tom Seaview, buddabelly, ER Doc, Kasoru, FrankRose
                            Do all of you agree with both parts of his accusation that a) I intentionally lied in my summary comment and b) that my comment accused KV of racism.

                            If I intentionally lied and accused someone of racism this thread should be hidden!

                            Why are you all holding your fire?

                            Is it possible that some of you aren't sure whether you even know what institutional racism is?

                            Is it possible that some of you aren't sure because you haven't read all of KV's dialogue on this subject?

                            Are you unsure of his claims re the Tampa Bay Times?

                            Unsure whether, if sent to the hiddens, others might read my summary and it supported in his comment record?

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 10:45:31 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Typo ... and find it supported in his... (0+ / 0-)

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 10:48:14 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you're the victim (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Kasoru

                            Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

                            by Tom Seaview on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 03:26:18 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Of course you don't (0+ / 0-)

                            No one does.

                            No one "supports" institutional racism.

                            Just like no one "supports" poverty.

                            Your make very clear statements in your comments above. Since you made the same detailed comment before, I thought your claims were sincere. Did I mistake subtle snark? Were you just pretending to believe what you wrote above when you claimed "it works"?

                            Were you just kidding when you claimed elsewhere that more justifiable homicides = more criminals getting killed?

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 07:40:29 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're trying to put a square peg into (6+ / 0-)

                            a round hole.

                            Your A +  B statement above is faulty. B does not equal more killers getting away with it. B equals more people successfully defending themselves with lethal force and not getting punished for it. Yes, there have been some abuses. There always are. Last time I checked, before SYG, you could be prosecuted and jailed for (after the fact) not retreating hard enough.

                            Did you see my comment about SYG in Florida and the research done by a local paper there? There were justified shooting numbers in that comment. Are you saying that all of these aren't? If not, what's the comment about guilty men vs innocent? Blackstone's formulation: "It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"

                          •  Yes, I've read and studied the Tampa Bay Times (0+ / 0-)

                            database, including their investigative articles and case studies. A few months ago I published several diaries on the topic, including some that cite and blockquote their analytival approach and their conclusions.

                            You commented in those diaries, asserting that more justifiable homicides means more criminals are getting killed.  You implied that was a good thing if...  Now here you are in this diary apparently totally unaware that you are grossly misrepresenting The Tampa Bay Times, and their extensive reporting on this issue.

                            I'd be happy to go find some links if you have a serious interest in understanding the topic. So far, i'm not convinced you even care that a) your argument is a house of cards, b) lots of people are waking up to the problem you can't see or just won't acknowledge.

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 09:55:39 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How does killing more criminals = racism??? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            theatre goon, Kasoru

                            I'm missing how you came to this conclusion?

                            I'll respect KV's wishes in this thread, he doesn't want your posting HR'd, but that's pretty low, even for you.

                            Or is this the new face of your groups' efforts to smear any and all you can???

                            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                            by gerrilea on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 10:24:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They didn't get very far... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            gerrilea, Kasoru

                            ...calling everyone who disagrees with them bullies (most of the GOS knowing that disagreement is not the same as bullying), so now they're trying to claim everyone who disagrees with them is racist.

                            The thing they apparently don't understand is that if you label everything as racist, then the term loses any real impact and actual racism goes overlooked.

                            "No amount of belief makes something a fact." --James Randi

                            by theatre goon on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 03:34:51 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  TG, you get the award for unintentional (0+ / 0-)

                            irony in this thread.

                            You're capable of making up you own mind about what institutional racism includes. I stand by my comments and did not acuse anyone of racism. Not here, not elsewhere.

                            Compulsively repeating your complaints and accusations ad nauseum won't suddenly make them true. All that does is convince readers you have nothing constructive to offer.

                            Pitiful little puppy piles like this one are just that. Pitiful. And ineffective.

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 09:16:34 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Don't take my word for it (0+ / 0-)

                            I know you like doing your own research, and will up your own mind. You might find the Tampa Bay Times extensive reporting on the issue as compelling as I did. You can sort the stories a number of different ways and read their investigative reports and case studies.

                            1) In comments above, KV attempted to make a racial parity argument, based solely on the race of the shooter.

                            2) His back of the envelope calculation ignored the race of the victim by averaging them together. His reference to a Tampa Bay Times study inferred that he's reporting their findings. (what he omits changes the whole conclusion).

                            3) KV interprets his caliculation as proof that FL's SYG law "is working." Elsewhere he has claimed that more justifiable homicides means more criminals are getting killed.

                            4) The diary and comment threads rebut his racial parity argument from multiple perspectives. I trust if you read both you'll draw you own conclusions about institutional racism. I did not call anyone a racist, and don't think he intentionally misrepresented the Tampa Bay Times.

                            "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

                            by LilithGardener on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 08:42:47 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  ok (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          theatre goon, Kasoru

                          Accuse someone of racism, get a donut. See how that works?

                          Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

                          by Tom Seaview on Thu Feb 20, 2014 at 07:21:04 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

    •  I thought you were pro gun and not necessarily (8+ / 0-)

      pro NRA or pro Stand Your Ground.
      I do not understand your support of the Stand Your Ground Law when you call yourself a liberal.
      And now you are professing to have information that contradicts what our (black people) understanding of what that law means to us, our children and our community.
      Have you lost your mind?
      Isn't it enough that you have the right to keep and bear your little killing machines? Must the laws and the understanding of human interaction be changed to give you even more of an unfair advantage? What is wrong with retreating if it means that blood will not be spilled.
      My husband (a gun enthusiast himself) is a trained martial artist, and he always cautioned my son, "walk away."
      One of the first thing my taekwondo trainer told me was that my feet were my best weapons. If at all possible, use your feet and run.
      You know you have the means to kill a man. Isn't that enough?

      Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

      by JoanMar on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 04:54:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Studies have found that SYG is a racist law. (8+ / 0-)

      It's intent is racist, it's application is racist and it's origin was racist.

      A finding of “justifiable homicide” is much more common in the case of a white-on-black killing than any other kind including a white and a black person.
      http://thesocietypages.org/...

      Maya Angelou: "Without courage, we cannot practice any other virtue with consistency. We can't be kind, true, merciful, generous, or honest."

      by JoanMar on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 05:02:27 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And it's implementation and spread across (5+ / 0-)

        the country is an ALEC achievement, accomplished through a thoroughly corrupt undemocratic process.

        The good news is that SYG has become toxic to the ALEC agenda and they are having trouble raising corporate money now. The more we expose ALEC's role the more we can begin to peel back this one tentacle of a great vampire squid that is chewing through our countries children.

        "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.” — William Arthur Ward

        by LilithGardener on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 05:24:25 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  Those that were justified didn't need SYG laws. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Vet63, liberalguy, Shotput8

      There were appropriate legal remedies prior to SYG. These laws just make it easier to be "justified." Feeling afraid as an acceptable excuse for taking a life just boggles the mind.

      I won't believe corporations are people until Texas executes one. Leo Gerard.

      by tgrshark13 on Tue Feb 18, 2014 at 05:40:15 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Oh lawd (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LilithGardener

      You're drawing conclusions from data which fails any reasonable test of statistical significance. Surely you must understand that?

      KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

      by fcvaguy on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 08:47:27 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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