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View Diary: UPDATED: Will New Ukrainian Truce Hold After Tuesday's Bloody Protest? Dozens Dead, 800+ Injured (54 comments)

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  •  that's one way of looking at it, (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    pico, peacestpete, Texas Lefty

    but the protestors themselves have legitimate aspirations and shouldn't be so casually dismissed as somehow inauthentic.

    Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

    by Loge on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 04:29:34 PM PST

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    •  there are always some protestors (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      ManhattanMan, Lepanto, ChadmanFL

      who always have legitimate grievances. Everywhere. Doesn't mean that the government should be toppled.

      The 1% have long since learned how to take existing unrest in an unstable country and manipulate it into an astroturf "revolution" in order to advance their economic interests, as argued here.

      The protestors are a diverse crew. They're not all believers in liberal democracy (although some are) nor are they all simple folk yearning for liberation from the neo-czarist tyranny (although some are); there are also some hard-core skinhead nationalist types who simply see an opportunity to kick some ass. Strange how people who see quite clearly that Putin's brand of Russian nationalism leans heavily on blood-and-soil ideas believe Ukrainian nationalism is totally exempt from these tendencies. "Ukraine for Ukrainians" can mean many, many things.

      I don't know whether a majority of Ukrainians want closer EU integration, no one polled them on this. Yanukovich made the wrong decision (as far as the EU is concerned) and suddenly a revolution springs up on his doorstep. Convenient, wot?

      Anyhow, the Ukrainians are not being offered the benefits of European democracy. No one in the EU is talking about ensuring their political rights or human rights. No, they are being offered free trade. Join our free trade zone, the EU says, and all sorts of good things will follow! Well, we've heard that one before.

      Not every protest is another #Occupy. You could tell #Occupy was genuine by the fact that all elites everywhere feared it.

      This is of a quite different flavor, as the US--the country with a worldwide network of flying robotic death machines daily raining down missiles over a dozen nations--has decided to step into this one and support this revolution to avoid bloodshed.

      "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

      by limpidglass on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 05:18:52 PM PST

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      •  I have no opinion on the toppling, (0+ / 0-)

        as an endgame, but the govts tactics are clearly out of hand and I'm ok aligning against them.

        Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

        by Loge on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 06:42:30 PM PST

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      •  This is a joke, right? (0+ / 0-)
        I don't know whether a majority of Ukrainians want closer EU integration, no one polled them on this.
        I'm not sure if you're serious about this or not: the issue's been relentlessly polled since EU market integration began five years ago (and even more broadly before that).  The trend lines are long established: geography, youth, and education are all big factors in EU support.

        Worse, I don't get this cynicism at the idea that the protests began when Yanukovych reneged on the EU process and began talks with Russia.  You clearly have not been following this issue.  Ukraine's been in the middle of a fairly tense set of negotiations about its future, and the various protests, which have been going on since his election (here's a big one from last March), only caught on so powerfully in late November because Yanukovych had his police raid the protest camps and beat up protestors.  Just because Western media hasn't been diligent in covering a country they're rarely interested in doesn't mean that that country's political situation sprang up the moment the cameras arrived.

        I understand the cynicism that greets any sense of American or western oligarchy, because lord knows we have the history to warrant it.  But this idea that Ukraine's protests are astroturf is the stuff of fantasy.

        And this:

        Anyhow, the Ukrainians are not being offered the benefits of European democracy. No one in the EU is talking about ensuring their political rights or human rights. No, they are being offered free trade.
        Are you just completely unfamiliar with the legal requirements of the trade agreement?  (Check out section 3, re: implementation of standards under the European Court of Human Rights, reform of their prison system, justice system, etc.)  This set of requirements were actually passed in March.

        Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

        by pico on Wed Feb 19, 2014 at 06:46:02 PM PST

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