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  •  So, in you're book "everyone" should (0+ / 0-)

    be allowed to buy a gun.

    Not even the NRA wants "everyone" to be able to purchase a gun.

    "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

    by We Shall Overcome on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 03:41:58 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Just as with other rights, it can be taken through (0+ / 0-)

      due process.

      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

      by FrankRose on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 05:04:33 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  OK, so some people's rights can be taken away (0+ / 0-)

        then and regulation and due process have a place in the Second Amendment, that's good to hear.

        "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

        by We Shall Overcome on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 05:23:55 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  With due process. Correct. (0+ / 0-)

          And I have some even better news for you.
          The Second is already regulated.

          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

          by FrankRose on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 05:35:38 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I can top that - Scalia says you can ban guns. (0+ / 0-)

            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

            by We Shall Overcome on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 05:43:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Sure you can. (0+ / 0-)

              Now all you have to do is manage to not get Democrats humiliatingly defeated on the national stage while doing so.

              Not off to much of a start, are you?

              Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

              by FrankRose on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 06:00:36 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  If by "not off to much of a start" you mean (0+ / 0-)

                passing some of the country's toughest gun safety legislation in NY and Connecticut as well as measures in Colorado, California, Maryland and others, watching the Supreme Court decline yesterday to take three pro gun cases, including two brought by the NRA, and getting Starbucks to ban the carry community from its stores and being on our way to getting Facebook to shut down gun sales and trades on its site, and getting Dick's Sporting Goods to take assault weapons off its shelves, then, yeah - we've gotten off to a terrible start.

                "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                by We Shall Overcome on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 06:12:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Colorado...... (0+ / 0-)

                  Remind me...whatever did happen there afterwards?

                  70 laws that loosened gun control.
                  34 laws that tightened gun control.
                  Link.

                  If you think that is good, then you have even more successes ahead of you.

                  Congratulations.

                  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                  by FrankRose on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 08:32:52 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Nickle & dime legislation v. ton o' bricks (0+ / 0-)

                    legislation, or put another way quantity v. quality ... most of the loosening of gun safety laws are around the edges and/or are legislation that many gun safety advocates support - ie, putting armed resource officers in schools.

                    The laws that tightened, on the other hand, go to the heart of the issue - background checks, limiting magazine capacity, banning assault weapons.

                    And, reducing gun violence is much more than legislation - changing cultural attitudes towards guns (Starbucks banning guns, Facebook banning guns, sporting goods stores taking AW off shelves, Hollywood and documentary film makers producing nationally distributed movies about the problem of gun violence), funding mental healthcare, funding gun violence research, multiple PACs being set up in the past year and raising money, lobbying legislators and supporting candidates.

                    And that's just in the past 12 months.

                    So, yes, congratulations, indeed.

                    "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                    by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 06:35:04 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Indeed. (0+ / 0-)

                      Your 'big wins' I am certain will come to a head on Nov 4.

                      I am very much looking forward to getting your thoughts after you have much the same successes you displayed in Colorado.

                      It is so very odd that the President only used a paragraph for the subject in his last SOTU speech & pro gun control Democrats up for election are failing to so much as mention their gun control stance on their websites.

                      My favorite part?
                      Defeating Bloomberg so totally that his candidates are hiding their viewpoints & his supporters are hiding from reality.

                      My least favorite part?
                      Watching the party suffer unprecedented & humiliating losses because of your irrational fears.

                      Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                      by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 07:10:22 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I guess it needs reminding - 2014 is an election (0+ / 0-)

                        year, and yes, passing gun safety legislation is a tricky proposition in America, as are many types of legislation:

                        1. Armed goon squads show up at state capitals and in public places to try to intimidate people from speaking up about the issue

                        2. The Koch Bros. and the gun lobby pour millions into misleading ads, "op eds", junk "research" (not unlike any other issue they are against - including stopping marriage equality or stopping climate change policy, so, you in fact are supporting the Kock Bros. agenda)

                        3. Trolls show up on blogs to try to polarize discussion and muddy the waters

                        What this ultimately means is that good people are held hostage by an extremist group whose goals are to keep people ignorant about the dangers of gun violence and possible solutions; who are draining public money from schools by requiring those schools in the aggregate to spend trillions to safeguard against campus murderers; who value gun industry profit over life; and who pass laws that give rise to a modern day Ku Klux Klan (SYG + Dunn + Zimmerman).

                        What this also shows is that your opposition to gun safety legislation is very similar to opposition to other Democrat party sponsorsed legislation - that opposition being "we can't do this or that because it will cost us elections"

                        Many other good legislative ideas from Obamacare to mitigating climate change to cutting the defense budget to passing marriage equality faced similar rhetoric and electioneering attacks, ie, "You can't pass Obamacare becuase it will cost us elections; you can't stop the Keystone XL because it will cost us elections; you can't cut defense because it will cost us elections."

                        In essence, you are supporting the Koch Bros. agenda.

                        We have all heard your concern in the comment section so much so that it has become SPAM - it is the same message repeated 1000s of times.

                        You haven't changed my mind and I don't think you have changed many minds - instead of SPAMMING in the comment section, you should make the case in a more forceful and persuasive way as a diary.

                        Otherwise, your comments simply come off as concern trolling, instead of a logical, substantive case for why it is important not to support gun safety.

                        Could you please write a diary and make your case for why Dems should not support gun safety legislation.

                        "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                        by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 07:50:02 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  How fun! (0+ / 0-)

                          Excuses before the failure.

                          I see you gun controllers have really evolved.

                          However I will continue to stick with results.
                          It seems the party agrees. There is a reason why gun control Dems up for election can't seem to find room to mention gun control on their own websites.

                          You have just witnessed the high point of the gun control movement for the past twenty years. They've already managed to peak.
                          And what a 'peak' it was, amirite?

                          Get used to irrelevancy.
                          Why not?
                          Gun controllers already have such good practice at it.

                          Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                          by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 08:55:53 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  More SPAM and insults - which are quite telling. (0+ / 0-)

                            It is a shame - if you truly believe gun safety legislation is not only bad policy but also bad election politics, you could do this community a real service by spending less time SPAMMING, insulting and harassing people in the comments and devote that time instead to posting diaries that could actually change people's minds - like Kos', Meteor Blades, Hunter and many other front pagers who are posting diaries that highlight the problem of gun violence and promote gun violence prevention.

                            Those are the minds you need to change in the DKos community. If you think you're ideas are worthy and that DKos is making a mistake in highlighting gun violence prevention and has been led astray, you should post diaries to that effect and see if you can persuade the front pagers to agree with you and post more diaries that make that case.

                            Otherwise, your comments can be easily chalked up to concern trolling and dismissed - which isn't doing yourself or you ideas any favors.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 09:16:00 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  There is no SPAM, insults nor concern trolling (0+ / 0-)

                            in my post.
                            1) SPAM is a cut and paste comment. Mine most assuredly is not.
                            2) If you think there is an insult, do quote me.
                            3) Concern trolling generally refers to someone presenting themselves as someone they are not. There are many complaints you may have about me, but not being genuine about my stance is certainly not one of them.

                            I don't need to change minds. I just need to remind people what the score is.
                            And I sure as hell don't need to do it in Daily Kos. This is a lot bigger than DKos, a blog with a disproportional representation of people from the coasts:
                            This is about an entire political party. This is about regions. Regions that the users of DKos seem painfully naive about. Regions that make up a large proportion of this nation.

                            In any case, this ship has sailed. No one can stop it. All we can do now is try to predict its course. (Psst. Already hit the rocks in the Rockies)

                            I will make my predictions, give my basis for them & then we see how it plays out.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:09:11 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Why were you banned from this site for 30 days? (0+ / 0-)

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:13:48 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  HR pile-ons from FLAP members. (0+ / 0-)

                            Strangely they don't seem to want to have the conversation anymore.
                            I, however welcome it.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:18:34 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  FLAP? So, why don't you post more diaries then? (0+ / 0-)

                            I understand and I'm guessing most everyone here would agree with the idea of regional differences over the issue of guns. But, in Colorado, even Tom Tancredo has voted for gun safety legislation.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:26:05 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  That's not the most surprising vote Colorado's (0+ / 0-)

                            experienced lately.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:35:47 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Tell me about it - the air quality control (0+ / 0-)

                            commission voted over the weekend 8-1 to regulate methane. That's the first instance of such regulation in the United States and maybe the world.

                            Oil and gas is a major part of Colorado's economic future, and that vote is a great example of how Colorado operates - it doesn't like partisan politics, it votes based on common sense, which is why Tancredo and the Colorado GOP voted for gun safety legislation after Columbine.

                            It's too bad the Tea Party extremists have infected today's GOP in every state, so much so that after another mass shooting murder in Aurora, the moderate GOPers could not dare to even speak the words "gun violence prevention" without the Koch Bros. and gun lobby lining up extremists in GOP primaries.

                            You'll notice, however, that the GOP has zero chance of unseating Hickenlooper despite the fact that as "Bloomberg's puppet" he signed sweeping gun reform into law.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:53:01 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  As impressive as your predictions of Colorado (0+ / 0-)

                            elections has been, you may want to see what quinnipiac found.

                            "Colorado voters give Democratic Gov. John Hickenlooper a split approval rating and more voters say he does not deserve to be reelected"
                            When more voters think that he deserves to be unseated, that means there is a somewhat greater chance than 'zero' of him being unseated.
                            While pondering that, why don't you take a wild guess when his numbers took a nose dive?

                            It wasn't "tea party extremists" that showed up to Giron & Morse's recall elections; it was Democrats...and 20-30% of those Democrats voted for their recall.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 12:09:19 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Shocker: more SPAM, you've made that point 1000x. (0+ / 0-)

                            And, you cherry picked that poll ... when participants are asked to vote in head to head matches, Hickelooper mops the floor, beating every GOP candidate with Tancredo being the most competitive. But doh! The rumor is, he is going to drop out because no one has a snow balls chance.

                            As we discussed yesterday, the "Draft Beauprez" nonsense drummed up by Erick Erickson on his conservative blog Red State likely means that Republican Bob Beauprez really and truly is about to jump into the race for Governor; pretending to "draft" a candidate is one of the oldest tricks in the political playbook. Of course, the very fact that Beauprez is even able to enter a top statewide race this late in the game is causing a certain amount of anxiety among Republicans, who see their chances at upending Gov. John Hickenlooper eroding by the day. But with a weak field unable to raise much money combined, it's becoming harder for anyone to dismiss a candidate who can at least self-fund to some degree — even if his last name is Beauprez.

                            Obviously Tancredo would deny that any such deal was in place — it doesn't do him any good to confirm this, particularly if Beauprez ultimately doesn't run — but this is the kind of thing that Tancredo would be likely to do. Before Tancredo became the American Constitution Party nominee for Governor in 2010, he talked openly about his preference that a strong Republican would run and make his own bid unnecessary. And as Mike Littwin notes in the Colorado Independent, Tancredo seems underwhelmed at the idea of actually being Governor: - See more at: http://coloradopols.com/...

                            http://coloradopols.com/...

                            But by all means, don't let your ignorance of Colorado get in the way of posting SPAM number 1,001 about Colorado's recall elections in 3, 2, 1 ... it's catchy and sounds interesting, but it's actually not. And, really, the bottom line at this point is, the more SPAM like that you post, the more what little credibility at DKos you may still have erodes.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 12:23:35 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If a sitting Governor was already behind in the (0+ / 0-)

                            polls before a nominee was chosen, the race would, for all practical purposes, already be over.
                            Cheer leading is pointless. Try to use some basic political knowledge when making predictions.

                            And yes. I do mention unprecedented elections where a quarter of Democrats voted GOP, particularly when the election was specifically as a result of the issue we are discussing & happened in the same state.
                            That isn't 'SPAM'.
                            That is the most accurate bellwether we have, that is by far the biggest game changer there is & that is the cold, hard FACT of the matter.

                            "what little credibility"
                            Credibility doesn't depend upon yours or anyone else's feelings.
                            Credibility depends upon being accurate.
                            And thus far my predictive accuracy has far outpaced your own.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 01:01:10 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Right - like I said, SPAM #1,001 has arrived. (0+ / 0-)

                            About basic political knowledge when making predictions, maybe you didn't read the block quote, in particular this:

                            Of course, the very fact that Beauprez is even able to enter a top statewide race this late in the game is causing a certain amount of anxiety among Republicans, who see their chances at upending Gov. John Hickenlooper eroding by the day. But with a weak field unable to raise much money combined, it's becoming harder for anyone to dismiss a candidate who can at least self-fund to some degree — even if his last name is Beauprez.
                            If you were the slightest bit interested in Colorado, you might have looked into who Beauprez is - he is a Colorado politics punchline. And the fact that he is considering getting into the race, is an indication of just how pathetic the GOP gubernatorial field is in 2014.

                            But, again, don't let that stop you from making SPAM number 1,002 about the Colorado recall elections in 3, 2, 1 ...

                            And, yes, credibility - most people at DKos rightly call you on your SPAMMING.

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 01:18:49 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Someone that is a political punch line? (0+ / 0-)

                            Al Sharpton.
                            Dennis Kucinich.
                            Joe Biden.
                            Mike Gravel.
                            Joe Lieberman.

                            All ran for the Democratic Party nomination in 04 or 08.

                            I am completely unaware of this political theory concerning nominees of yours .
                            Primarily because it doesn't exist.

                            There is already a bellwether for you to look to.
                            Polls already show that Hickenlooper is vulnerable.
                            At best the party is going to be forced to put resources into a race where the governor was untouchable.
                            There is one reason why it is not.

                            The best thing that could happen for Hickenlooper is for Tancredo to win the nomination. How can you possibly come to the conclusion that his leaving the race is good for Hickenlooper?
                            Tancredo is a known entity & has a shitload of baggage.
                            More voters already think he should lose his job. The GOP wants the race about Hickenlooper. Why would they want to make it about Tancredo?
                            Again, this is basic knowledge of political strategy.

                            There is even recent election results that bare this out.
                            A very clear indicator that most call 'FACT', but you refer to as 'SPAM'.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 01:53:34 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Facinating insight - but I think I'll stick to (0+ / 0-)

                            reading bloggers and reporters that actually follow Colorado politics on a daily basis, and listening to what my friends and neighbors in Colorado have to say about it.

                            Here's a little more on why Hick is a lock:

                            The business community loves him - he is one of theirs. And, guess who is going to bat for the GOP pitch to get the 2016 GOP convention in Denver? Hick. And he has presided over an economy that now has a sub 6% unemployment rate, and is being voted by many natioanl financial mags as a top place to start a small business as well as a top place to live.

                            The oil and gas industry loves him - he is one of theirs. "You can drink fracking fluid and it doesn't harm you." That's a Hick quote.

                            Dems legalized pot and will raise $100 million in taxes for those sales for school construction/job creation/substance abuse/mental health treatment

                            The sane members of the Colorado GOP despise the Tea Party crazies whose only selling point is ban abortion and guns for everyone.

                            There is not a GOP moderate in this race - they are all right wing loons, are ethically challenged, or are just plain out of their league. Tancredo is the only one with wide name recognition because the others either live in Timbuktuu and/or are being investigated for ethics violations and/or have had run-ins with the law, and/or support "personhood".

                            You have a distorted view of Colorado politics because you don't realize that guns just aren't as big of an issue as you make them out to be.

                            Believe it or not, people want jobs, clean air and water, and they want right wing loons out of their vaginas more than they care about guns.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 02:18:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well why not? (0+ / 0-)

                            That worked out so well for you last time.

                            Tancredo is the only one with wide name recognition
                             Name recognition isn't the name of the game in an election where the incumbent has more voters that think the incumbent should lose his job.
                            Lack of baggage is.
                            Again, basic politics.

                            This is a race in Colorado.
                            There shouldn't be. There are no elections easier for incumbents than mid-term elections, but because of the fact that more voters want him to lose his job, resources will have to be spent here to try to keep him in office.
                            Again, basic politics.

                            Voters decide who wins elections; not 'the business community', not oil & gas--voters.
                            More voters think he should lose his job than keep it.
                            Morse, Giron & Hudak had far more money and far more name recognition than their opponents.
                            Do tell, how did that work out for them?

                            Giron's district went for Obama by 19 points.
                            The entire state of Colorado only went for Obama by 5. Giron lost despite having a district that went for Obama four times as strongly as the state as a whole.

                            You have a distorted view of Colorado politics
                            Then it is all the more impressive that my predictions on Colorado has been far more accurate than your own.

                            Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

                            by FrankRose on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 03:05:37 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Correction - that strawman you keep referring to: (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Glen The Plumber
                            Then it is all the more impressive that my predictions on Colorado has been far more accurate than your own.
                            ... is just that - a strawman, that you set up and knock down in order to create another nice piece of SPAM you can repeat over and over ... apparently for your own benefit because no one at DKos  buys anything you write in the comments:

                            http://www.dailykos.com/...

                            The fact is - I never "predicted" the results of the recalls.

                            I said they would be a tough and worthy fight.

                            You on the other hand cheer led the Koch Bros./John Birch Society/NRA funded groups that drove the recalls. Interesting company you keep.

                            The governor's race on the other hand is a different story.

                            I'm happy to predict Hickenlooper will win - the economy is humming, the public coffers are full, the GOP already got to shoot down a big liberal tax increase. There's no reason to change course, especially given the lack of any real candidate in the GOP field.

                            I enjoy reading your attempts to sound like you know Colorado politics but it's weak tea - clearly someone pretending to understand what's going on.

                            "Looking back over a lifetime, you see that love was the answer to everything." — Ray Bradbury

                            by We Shall Overcome on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 03:25:52 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  "SPAM is a cut and paste comment. Mine most assure (0+ / 0-)

                            dly is not."

                            That sounds rather like professional pride to me.

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