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View Diary: Taking Action Against The Rogue State (115 comments)

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  •  AoT.... (2+ / 0-)
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    serendipityisabitch, earicicle

    Are you sure about this?

    Let's not forget that Yanukovich was fairly elected in 2010.
    First, everyone agrees his 2005 election was a complete fraud, resulting in the Orange Revolution. 2010? There were a lot of issues:
    — about 300,000 voters who voted but were not in the "Register of Voters of Ukraine";
    — about 1.3 million voters who "without right" voted in their homes;
    — about falsification in the election in the eastern regions (Donetsk, Luhansk, Kharkiv region, Crimea, etc.) — fixed by law-enforcement officials.
    Yes, the court ultimately validated the election. But, that doesn't mean the election was valid. Furthermore, not long after that election, his primary political opponent was jailed. He also worked to rewrite the Constitution and strip Parliament of its powers. He's gone so far, that just yesterday 25 of his own party members have abandoned him while the rest left the country.

    Right now, I put my faith in the Ukrainian people. Not Yanukovich, and certainly not Putin. If the two sides can't resolve their differences, then probably the best result is for them to split - ethnic Ukrainians can align themselves with Europe and ethnic Russians can align themselves with Russia.

    KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

    by fcvaguy on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 01:41:00 PM PST

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    •  Most other countries said the 2010 election was (2+ / 0-)

      legitimate. Or as legitimate as could be expected.

      The OCSE seemed fine with it. "International observers and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe have called the election transparent and honest."

      Was it more legit than the "election" of Bush in 2000?

      And as I said, I was not putting any faith in Yanukovich. The US is involved, and was also involved in the Orange Revolution. I can be against the dictator and against US actions.

      If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

      by AoT on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 01:55:51 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes (3+ / 0-)

        the US was in support of the Orange Revolution. So was the EU, and most of the rest of the World. Even George Soros was sending money in support of the protesters!! That doesn't make it wrong. The revolution, by every account, was largely funded internally, and mainly consisted of protests, sit-ins and direct action by the Ukrainian people. Russia was far more directly involved on the other side. I'm not seeing a healthy dose of Russia criticism here, are you?

        I guess maybe the difference here is that I don't always believe US involvement is ALWAYS a negative thing. It often is, but many times it is not.

        But, back to the point - do you believe the US, and specifically the claims made by Cohen and Democracy now are backed up by real evidence? and specifically anything in that tape relative to current events in Ukraine?

        KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

        by fcvaguy on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 02:06:01 PM PST

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        •  No, it doesn't make it wrong (2+ / 0-)

          But it still means that we were destabilizing their country. And it means that it was, by all reasonable measures, a legitimate election in 2010. At least relatively so. I'm not begrudging the Ukrainian people anything, I just refuse to ignore American complicity.

          If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

          by AoT on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 02:12:27 PM PST

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          •  I'm just having difficulty (3+ / 0-)

            with the acute focus on whatever, if any, American involvement there may have been relative to the demonstrated corruption in country, the legitimate issues of the Ukrainian people, and the overt meddling of Putin. From what I've seen, the US and EU have been on the right side of this crisis - on the side of the people.

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 04:39:47 PM PST

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            •  Well, we can't do anything about the corruption (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ray Pensador

              there. Not that I don't feel the same about corruption here most of the time as well, but we can at least in theory do something about the role our government plays in these sort of conflicts.

              If knowledge is power and power corrupts, does that mean that knowledge corrupts?

              by AoT on Fri Feb 21, 2014 at 06:01:49 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

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