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View Diary: Max Blumenthal: Is the U.S. Backing Neo-Nazis in Ukraine? (99 comments)

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  •  The US has been backing Tyahnybok as one of the (5+ / 0-)

    "big three" selected to take power in the Ukraine. The US has pumped 5 billion into the Ukraine in their attempt to control the outcome.

    Nuland: “what [Yatsenyuk] needs [after he is installed in office] is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside—he needs to be talking to them four times a week.”

    Both Victoria Nuland and John McCain have been photographed many times in the last two months with Oleh Tyahnybok, the leader of Svoboda.

    Tyahnybok Nuland

    •  How Obama and Kerry tolerate this neocon (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilK

      is beyond me.  She should be fired posthaste.

      "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

      by Paleo on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:03:18 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  a photo op (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      OIL GUY

      how shocking!

      let me repeat myself:

      please show some evidence that the u.s. is backing the neo-nazis, rather than just opposing yanukovych.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:03:29 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yes, because Chavez and a Ukrainian Nazi are (0+ / 0-)

        one and the same.

        This puts your Venezuela diary in bold perspective.

        "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

        by Paleo on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:07:26 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  try again (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          OIL GUY

          this is the same argument used by the right wing that obama was supporting the muslim brotherhood when he finally backed the egyptian opposition. let me make this very simple for you:

          please show some evidence that the u.s. is backing the neo-nazis, rather than just opposing yanukovych.

          The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

          by Laurence Lewis on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:08:56 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sounds like John McCain and Syria (0+ / 0-)

            Calling for militarily aiding the opposition even though an important component was al qaeda.  Here, the US is supporting the opposition.  An important component of which is Svoboda.  

            "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

            by Paleo on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:16:45 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  yes (0+ / 0-)

              and the muslim brotherhood was an important component of the egyptian opposition, therefore the republicans were right about obama!

              The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

              by Laurence Lewis on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:25:25 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Which is kind of funny since (0+ / 0-)

                the MB was overthrown in a military coup.  Which the U.S. tolerated.

                While the U.S. has put in great efforts to overthrow the elected government in Ukraine.

                "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

                by Paleo on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:34:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  wow (0+ / 0-)

                  this gets more embarrassing and surreal by the moment. yeah, elected, and then threw the opposition in jail. and built a palace while his people suffered because the government wasn't governing.

                  and yeah, the muslim brotherhood was overthrown, after it attempted to quash democracy. here's a novel thought: maybe it's okay to criticize autocrats no matter their alignment on the political spectrum- mubarak, muslim brotherhood, and military.

                  The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

                  by Laurence Lewis on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:43:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

    •  Ugh. No. (7+ / 0-)
      The US has pumped 5 billion into the Ukraine in their attempt to control the outcome.
      The US has pumped 5 billion into the Ukraine since 1991, and our spending has been in decline since the last decade.  If we're spending money to influence the outcome, we're doing it wrong.

      Why people eat up this CT nonsense, I don't understand.

      Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

      by pico on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:06:17 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Nuland's remarks (5+ / 0-)

        at the US-Ukraine Foundation conference, 12-13-'13, are linked in the Blumenthal piece ☛ IIP Digital US Embassy.gov

        The free market is not the solution, the free market is the problem.

        by Azazello on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 10:34:01 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Victoria Nuland admits as much (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        zip95843, lotlizard, unfangus

        The goal is to have the Ukraine join the EU and by default, allow a NATO base. What started the protests was the rejection of the EU economic ties and IMF loans (which had severe austerity measures) by Yanukovych. Russia offered a loan and cheap gas. One of the austerity measures required by the IMF for a loan was the removal of subsidies for natural gas. This would have angered the people and destroyed Yanukovych. He was put between a rock and a hard place.

        BTW, using the IMF (and it's austerity programs) for economic blackmail is also what was done to Morsi in Egypt to force him out.

        Nuland: "preconditions for Ukraine to achieve it's European aspirations. We've invested over 5 billion dollars to assist Ukraine in these and other goals."

        •  You can actually read the budget breakdown (0+ / 0-)

          of aid spent in Ukraine.  Nuland rolled in the last quarter-century of aid (which comes in just shy of $5 billion) to argue for the US's bona fides in supporting Ukraine.  There's nothing particularly special about that. I'll bite that "building democratic institutions" (one of the subcategories of aid) should keep everyone wary, given our history, but it's so much less impressive to say that we're putting a few million into that over the course of multiple years and regimes.   Keep in mind that one of the EU's demands was a restructuring of Ukraine's justice and penal system, all of which was passed under Yanukovych in March.  So there are some pretty complicated infrastructural issues underlying all of this.

          Where are you getting the NATO bases thing from?  Ukraine legislated against it 4 years ago, and it hasn't been a hurdle to EU integration at all.

          Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

          by pico on Mon Feb 24, 2014 at 11:22:21 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I provided links to the series of documents that (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            pico, Lib Dem FoP

            show Yanokovich was in agreement with the EU until the end of 2011 on the process of economic and political integration.  He signed off on it himself.

            After that, the EU cited necessary reforms because the 2012 parliamentary elections were rigged, the judicial process was used to exclude opposition leaders from running for election, and the government's fiscal management was corrupt.

            A status report was issued to follow up in June 2013.
            In November, Yanokovich's Cabinet of Ministers voted to withdraw from the Association Agreement, rather than make the necessary reforms.  

            Concurrently with these events since 2011, Putin conjured up a proposal for a Eurasian Union. It doesn't require the standards of civil liberties and democracy that the EU requires. When the Yanokovich government changed course last November, the people hit the street.

            These folks ignore the documented facts of this timeline and cover it with propaganda lies written to spec. I was ridiculed and insulted for the documentation I linked to the EU website, while they have none. All they have is half-baked talking points and debating with them is like a trip down a rabbit hole.

             

            There is no existence without doubt.

            by Mark Lippman on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 12:27:47 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  The IMF's neoliberal austerity program was what (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              unfangus

              killed the EU deal.

              Assistant Secretary Nuland at U.S.-Ukraine Foundation Conference

              That was going to require immediate steps to deescalate the security situation and immediate political steps to end the crisis and get Ukraine back into a conversation with Europe and the International Monetary Fund.

              As you all know, and as I’m sure you just heard from Anders and other colleagues, Ukraine’s economy is in a dire state, having been in recession for more than a year and with less than three months’ worth of foreign currency reserves in place. The reforms that the IMF insists on are necessary for the long-term economic health of the country. A new deal with the IMF would also send a positive signal to private markets and would increase foreign direct investment that is so urgently needed in Ukraine. Signing the Association Agreement with the EU would also put Ukraine on the path to strengthening the sort of stable and predictable business environment that investors require. There is no other path that would bring Ukraine back to long-term political stability and economic growth.

              Ukraine Needs `Reforms' Before IMF Aid, Lipsky Says

              Feb. 24 (Bloomberg) -- John Lipsky, a professor at Johns Hopkins University and former first deputy managing director of the International Monetary Fund, talks about the potential for an international aid package for Ukraine.

              •  Except that Yanukovych had a better (0+ / 0-)

                relationship with the IMF than his predecessor.  And Tymoshenko, whose release from prison was one of the EU's points of negotiation, actually caused the IMF to drop its relationship with Ukraine in 2009.  If this was all a big IMF ploy, it'd have started a lot earlier and aimed at the previous regime.  And they should ask why the EU and the US and whoever kept trying to free the politician who severed the relationship on the first place.  Kind of a silly timeline, don't you think?

                Although it's clear Yanukovych did piss off the IMF: under his leadership Ukraine repaired the relationship and agreed to accept IMF loans, then reneged on the deal from their end by refusing to implement the promised reforms.  

                This attempt to connect everything to some neoliberal plot is divorced from the plain facts.

                Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                by pico on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 01:18:12 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Viktor Yushchenko got an IMF loan in 2007 (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  katiec
                  And Tymoshenko, whose release from prison was one of the EU's points of negotiation, actually caused the IMF to drop its relationship with Ukraine in 2009.
                  Why are you conflating the EU with the IMF? The US effectively controls the IMF. It has the largest vote.
                  IMF Urges Ukraine To Stick With Recovery Policies
                  November 4, 2009

                  An IMF Mission recently returned from Kyiv after discussions with the authorities on the third review under Ukraine’s $16.4 billion Stand-By Arrangement with the Fund. The IMF Survey magazine spoke with Mission Chief Ceyla Pazarbasioglu about the trip and the outcome of discussions.

                  IMF Survey online: Why are you so concerned about the social standards law that was recently passed?

                  Pazarbasioglu: As I said, it is simply not possible to increase wages and pensions too rapidly without leading to higher unemployment or higher inflation. This is a high price to pay, especially for the poor.

                  If the social standards law is implemented as voted, it could cost as much as 7 percent of GDP in 2010, which is totally unsustainable. Even with a change in the law as suggested by the President—which would limit indexation to low-wage workers—we estimate a cost of as much as 2½ percent of GDP, a very large addition to Ukraine’s budget deficit. However you calculate it, the country simply cannot afford this.

                  The measure would be counter-productive, as a soaring budget deficit would threaten economic stability and the poor and vulnerable will end up paying the price. We therefore have communicated to the President that the Ukrainian authorities need to stick with their earlier commitments in this area.

                  IMF Survey online: Is modifying the 2010 draft budget part of what needs to be done?

                  Pazarbasioglu: Yes, the Government has submitted a draft 2010 budget that would lead to a deficit of almost 8 percent of GDP, far above program commitments. In addition to pushing up interest rates, a deficit of this size would be very difficult to finance without resorting to inflation. Measures to reduce this are under discussion, but require consensus.

                  This attempt to connect everything to some neoliberal plot is divorced from the plain facts.
                  From your own link if you want it spelled out:
                  Ukraine's cooperation with the IMF – unfulfilled hopes for deeper reforms

                  Even though the IMF has numerous reservations about the Ukrainian government's economic policy, the fundamental condition for resuming cooperation is reform of the pension system, which the parliament should adopt.
                  The difficulties with fulfilling the obligations made to the IMF reflect the wider problem with implementing reforms in Ukraine, as the Party of Regions promised after taking power. Changes which do not affect the interests of influential lobbies are quite easy to carry out. Often, however, these changes are not conducive to the economy's liberalisation; moreover, the influential lobbies are successful in blocking reforms that could harm their businesses. Another impediment to the changes is that some reforms are likely to bring about painful social consequences, and that can affect public support for the ruling group.

                  IMF to consider financial aid to Ukraine, while Yanukovych heads to Russia to negotiate with Putin
                  16 December 2013

                  The International Monetary Fund (IMF) will meet on Monday, December 16, to consider financial aid to Ukraine as the country balances on the brink of a fiscal crisis. The terms put forward by the IMF are spending cuts, the flexible exchange rate of the hryvna and higher gas tariffs for the population.

                  Ukraine hopes to obtain $15 billion in IMF loans which it desperately needs to bolster its economy and meet its debt liabilities. Earlier, President Viktor Yanykovych rejected as unacceptable calls for radical macroeconomic reforms being pressed on him by the IMF.

                  •  Okay, this is getting incoherent. (0+ / 0-)

                    You wrote this:

                    The IMF's neoliberal austerity program was what killed the EU deal
                    I said: they had nothing to do with each other.  Then you wrote this:
                    Why are you conflating the EU with the IMF?
                    Is this some kind of performance art?

                    I think you've misread my comments blockquoted above.  Under Prime Minister Tymoshenko the IMF ended its relationship with Ukraine.  Yanukovych repaired that relationship, though it's been up and down since (in large part because Ukraine failed to meet its end of the bargain.)   Meanwhile both the EU and US had been working to free Tymoshenko, who's basically heir apparent to the presidency at this point.  If this is all about pushing IMF measures on Ukraine, why would we be doing that?  She ran on economic populism, refusing IMF loans, and had no interest in the IMF outside of calls for them to investigate corruption.

                    Your narrative of US involvement collapses on itself.

                    Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

                    by pico on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 09:38:18 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Friend, neo-liberal austerity comes out of the (0+ / 0-)

                European Central Bank (ECB) and it is applied to the EU members that don't have their own currency and their own central bank. It's partially because the ECB has leverage over the countries that adopted the Euro that it imposes the economic policy I call "Austerity For All." The ECB doesn't take the circumstances of each individual into consideration. They all get the same economic and fiscal policy dictated to them. Countries that didn't adopt the Euro, like the UK and Denmark, can still end up with austerity, if the people elect national governments that favor it. Everyone knows the austerity policy has been a disaster and people are waiting to see if changes will be made.

                Nuland is as incompetent as Condi Rice. She was talking about the IMF which no one I know would equate with austerity, but if you want, you can call it that. Ukraine has its own currency and it can issue debt, if anyone will buy it. Russia bought $5 billion and said in January it would buy $15 billion total.  Ukraine has an obligation to repay the loan upon maturity.

                Borrowing money from Russia or the IMF isn't austerity because Ukraine's government if it's functioning normally will spend the money it borrows. When the government spends it distributes money into the nation's economy.
                With Russia, it's the Ukraine issuing debt. With the IMF, Ukraine would borrow from an external source that expects its borrowers to adapt themselves to a market economy.

                This is really what's at the center of Ukraine's debacle.  Whether to have a market economy which is for Ukraine to decide. It's politics is dominated by oligarchs. Picture 5 different versions of Donald Trump competing for control of the US. Personality cults seem to matter more than solving the country's problems. I doubt the future. The economy resembles Russia more than Europe, but the people are much poorer than either.

                There is no existence without doubt.

                by Mark Lippman on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 02:34:11 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I'm not sure what you mean (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  tardis10, unfangus
                  Borrowing money from Russia or the IMF isn't austerity because Ukraine's government if it's functioning normally will spend the money it borrows. When the government spends it distributes money into the nation's economy.
                  The IMF insisted on spending cuts and removal of fuel subsidies in the Ukraine as a prerequisite for their loans. Putin offered 15 billion at 5% interest with no strings. He also threw in cheaper gas to allow the Ukrainian government to continue with it's subsidies.
                  IMF Officials: We Were Wrong About Austerity

                  Sharp spending cuts and tax increases have long played a central role in the International Monetary Fund's prescriptions for governments in financial distress -- most recently for the struggling members of the euro area. Now, officials at the world's primary arbiter of fiscal prudence are recognizing that such austerity can do a lot more damage than previously thought.

                  •  The term "austerity" doesn't apply to a dirt-poor (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    pico

                    country like Ukraine. Austerity is a term used for wealthy countries that accumulated a high degree of debt.

                    Austerity, or deficit and debt reduction, is a failed policy everywhere it was tried. Ukraine has complex problems that go beyond budget deficits. These numbers might clarify Ukraine's situation compared to Greece and Turkey, another country that applied for admission to the EU.

                    Metric Greece Turkey Ukraine
                    GDP per capita $22,095 $11,011 $4,011
                    GDP  per capita based on PPP $24,219 $15,878 $7,657
                    Unemployment rate 26.01 9.47 8.02
                    General government revenue 43.59 35.70 44.48
                    General government  expenditure 46.88 38.00 49.62
                    Deficit 3.29 2.30 5.15
                    General government total debt 173.99 34.87 48.15
                    The first two rows show that individual incomes in Ukraine are far below the level in Greece even though there was a substantial decline in Greece in recent years.

                    The high unemployment rate in Greece is the effect of austerity. Many well-paid government jobs were eliminated.

                    The last row shows the much higher level of debt in Greece compared to the other two. Ukraine's budget deficit is larger than the other two but the US has sustained much larger deficits.

                    So what's the problem apart from low income? The rate of taxation is comparable to European countries that have a substantial social safety net and highly developed infrastructure. How does Ukraine spend the revenue it collects. One item stands out because the numbers don't seem possible.

                    Natural gas imports from Russia and subsidies paid to consumers that equal 7.5% of GDP per year. In the US, that would be like spending over a trillion dollars a year on natural gas used by consumers. We don't even spend as much on Social Security benefits + Veterans benefits.
                    How much gas Ukraine imports and what it pays is a mystery. The figures Ukraine releases indicate a level of consumption per household that exceeds any other country in Europe. And then there were the disputes between Ukraine and Russia from 2005 - 2010 that led to a disruption in supply. Russia accused Ukraine of siphoning and reselling. Normally, there would be a trade treaty to settle such disputes between countries.

                    The IMF lent Ukraine $15 billion in 2010 and failed to make any of the reforms it promised. It recommended that Ukraine establish a market economy, buying natural gas at world market prices, and selling it to consumers with subsidies only for the bottom 40% of the population.

                    Ukraine is completely dependent on Russia for its energy and Russia has demonstrated that it would use the leverage it has to its own advantage.

                    It's funny that Tymoshenko was accused of corruption related to the gas industry but even after she was jailed, the same problems persist.  The situation is far from normal.

                    There is no existence without doubt.

                    by Mark Lippman on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 08:16:37 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You comments still do not make sense to me (0+ / 0-)
                      The term "austerity" doesn't apply to a dirt-poor country like Ukraine.
                      Wiki:
                      In economics, austerity describes policies used by governments to reduce budget deficits during adverse economic conditions. These policies may include spending cuts, tax increases, or a mixture of the two.[1][2][3] Austerity policies may be attempts to demonstrate governments' fiscal discipline to their creditors and credit rating agencies by bringing revenues closer to expenditures.
                      How does that differ from the following policy of reducing current budget deficits of the Ukrainian government?
                      Statement by IMF Mission to Ukraine
                      Press Release No. 13/419
                      October 31, 2013
                      ...
                      “The general government budget deficit is projected to rise to 5¾ percent in 2013, including up to 1¼ percent of GDP in recognized VAT refund and expenditure arrears to be covered by recently approved promissory notes. The mission welcomes the authorities’ aim to clear these arrears but recommends that this be done through conventional methods, as promissory notes risk undermining future fiscal performance.

                      “An ambitious fiscal consolidation is needed to reduce the budget’s large financing needs and support external adjustment. Consolidation efforts should focus on the high level of budget expenditure—nearly 50 percent of GDP—through wage and employment restraint, subsidy cuts, and rationalization of spending on goods and services. Tax cuts should be postponed until the budget deficit is reduced to a sustainable level.

                      “The large loss-making energy sector needs to be reformed. The low retail tariffs (covering only a small fraction of economic costs) generate quasi-fiscal losses, balance of payment weaknesses, underinvestment in domestic production, and governance problems. As a priority measure, we advise a significant upfront increase in gas and heating tariffs for households and adoption of a schedule for further increases until cost recovery is reached. To mitigate the effect of tariff adjustment on the less affluent, we recommend scaling up targeted social assistance programs that would cover up to 40 percent of the population.
                      ...

            •  In a previous diary, I think it was Loge said (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Mark Lippman

              that when you have a hammer, everything is a nail.  That's been my experience with this discussion: because there are neoliberal interests here, that must be the cause and ultimate explanation of all the events, as if Ukrainians aren't exercising any self-interest here, as if protests against Yanukovych haven't gone back to his election, etc.  It's a weird little hobgoblin that can't be shaken.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 01:24:03 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  Do you remember the NATO 3? (0+ / 0-)

            Interesting on how hard the American cops came down on these protestors. They got nailed for doing very little.

            http://freethenato3.wordpress.com

            Trial Day 10: “Let’s Make These [Molotovs] So I Can Go Bomb a F—- Bank” Undercover Cop Said, Prosecution and Defense Rest Cases

            Where are you getting the NATO bases thing from?  Ukraine legislated against it 4 years ago, and it hasn't been a hurdle to EU integration at all.
            NATO first needs a compliant leadership in the Ukraine to get their missile bases inside like they did with Hungary, the Czech Republic, and Poland.
            Chicago Summit Declaration
            Issued by the Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Chicago on 20 May 2012

            35. An independent, sovereign and stable Ukraine, firmly committed to democracy and the rule of law, is key to Euro-Atlantic security. Marking the fifteenth anniversary of the NATO-Ukraine Charter on a Distinctive Partnership, we welcome Ukraine’s commitment to enhancing political dialogue and interoperability with NATO, as well as its contributions to NATO-led operations and new offers made.  We note the recent elimination of Ukraine’s highly enriched uranium in March 2012, which demonstrates a proven commitment to non-proliferation. Recalling our decisions in relation to Ukraine and our Open Door policy stated at the Bucharest and Lisbon Summits, NATO is ready to continue to develop its cooperation with Ukraine and assist with the implementation of reforms in the framework of the NATO-Ukraine Commission and the Annual National Programme (ANP).  Noting the principles and commitments enshrined in the NATO-Ukraine Charter and the ANP, we are concerned by the selective application of justice and what appear to be politically motivated prosecutions, including of leading members of the opposition, and the conditions of their detention.  We encourage Ukraine to address the existing shortcomings of its judicial system to ensure full compliance with the rule of law and the international agreements to which it is a party.  We also encourage Ukraine to ensure free, fair and inclusive Parliamentary elections this autumn.

            Charter on a Distinctive Partnershipbetween the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and Ukraine

            V. Cooperation for a More Secure Europe

                NATO Allies will continue to support Ukrainian sovereignty and independence, territorial integrity, democratic development, economic prosperity and its status as a non-nuclear weapon state, and the principle of inviolability of frontiers, as key factors of stability and security in Central and Eastern Europe and in the continent as a whole.
                NATO and Ukraine will develop a crisis consultative mechanism to consult together whenever Ukraine perceives a direct threat to its territorial integrity, political independence, or security.
                NATO welcomes and supports the fact that Ukraine received security assurances from all five nuclear-weapon states parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) as a non-nuclear weapon state party to the NPT, and recalls the commitments undertaken by the United States and the United Kingdom, together with Russia, and by France unilaterally, which took the historic decision in Budapest in 1994 to provide Ukraine with security assurances as a non-nuclear weapon state party to the NPT.

            Ukraine's landmark decision to renounce nuclear weapons and to accede to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state greatly contributed to the strengthening of security and stability in Europe and has earned Ukraine special stature in the world community. NATO welcomes Ukraine's decision to support the indefinite extension of the NPT and its contribution to the withdrawal and dismantlement of nuclear weapons which were based on its territory.

            Ukraine's strengthened cooperation with NATO will enhance and deepen the political dialogue between Ukraine and the members of the Alliance on a broad range of security matters, including on nuclear issues. This will contribute to the improvement of the overall security environment in Europe.

            •  So in other words, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Lib Dem FoP

              there are no NATO bases on the table, like I said.  NATO cooperation has been a feature of the last few Ukrainian regimes - but bases were outlawed four years ago.  That you're showing me evidence of cooperation is... not conflicting with what I said.  NATO hasn't pressed Ukraine on this point.  The EU hasn't even brought it up.  You're running off on a fantasy.

              Saint, n. A dead sinner revised and edited. - Ambrose Bierce

              by pico on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 01:20:47 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  It was Yanukovich who spearheaded the anti NATO (0+ / 0-)

                vote in parliament.

                You're running off on a fantasy.
                What fantasy? At least I am supplying links to back up my statements. What are yours backed up with? They appear to come out of thin air.

                When Yanukovich was elected in 2010, NATO membership was shelved for good. Very few, except pro-Western Yushchenko and Timoshenko, wanted a NATO base in any event.

                Yanukovich would have to be removed if there was any hope for a NATO base in the future.

                (Interesting side note about cinemas having to only show films dubbed in Ukrainian)

                Ukraine set to outlaw Nato bases after Russian threats
                Thursday 14 February 2008
                ...
                Last month Mr Yushchenko and Ukraine's pro-Western Prime Minister Julia Timoshenko, the pair who led the Orange Revolution in 2004, asked Nato to begin considering Ukrainian membership – a move hugely controversial among a large section of the Ukrainian population and strongly criticised by Moscow.
                ...
                The deal reached in Moscow this week seems to satisfy both sides for now, but Russian-Ukrainian relations are still fraught with difficulty. Ukrainian citizens in the Russian-speaking eastern part of the country have complained that a raft of discriminatory legislation has been passed in recent months. One of the most controversial was a law stating that cinemas could only show films that were dubbed into Ukrainian. Many cinemas in the Russian-speaking parts of the country have simply closed down.

                Earlier in the week, 50 MPs from the Party of the Regions stopped the work of the Ukrainian parliament by blocking the rostrum and waving balloons in the colour of the Ukrainian flag inscribed with "No to Nato!" The party is headed by Viktor Yanukovich, who was defeated by Mr Yushchenko in the re-run presidential election that followed the Orange Revolution.

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