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View Diary: Those Sounds You Hear? They Are the Death Pangs of the Religious Right (288 comments)

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    •  Please, feel free to disagree and contradict. (100+ / 0-)

      The abortion restrictions passed, as a result of well-organized political efforts, cannot be discounted.

      But my argument is that such movement legislatively is at a peak as public opinion moves away from what seems more normative.

      My argument in short is that the religious right's clear social loss on marriage equality is a harbinger of things to come.

      "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

      by David Harris Gershon on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:09:28 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Demographic sociopolitical momentum (16+ / 0-)

        is unstoppable.

        What do we want? Evidence-based change! When do we want it? After peer review!

        by puckmtl on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:42:57 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  more GOP states considering anti-gay laws (15+ / 0-)

        Indiana also considering, but I don't have a link.

        Georgia House Bill 1023 will allow denial of services based on religious grounds
        2/24/14....It was first passed by the House and Senate in Arizona and now it appears Georgia is following suit and considering a "religious rights" bill that could provide a wider berth of protection for people, government employees and businesses to deny services to people because of their religious convictions.

        ....Tennessee, South Dakota, Kansas and Mississippi are considering similar legislation.

        http://www.news4jax.com/...

        "Tax cuts for the 1% create jobs." -- Republicans, HAHAHA - in China

        by MartyM on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:50:37 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  DHG, you confuse the tip of the iceberg (43+ / 0-)

        with the iceberg.

        What you are documenting MAY signal a loss in a skirmish today, but a thorough review of the history of the radical religious right, which includes protestant and catholic fundamentalists, will indicate they are instead metasticizing.

        To be blunt about it, you do the cause of fighting religious fundamentalism a great disservice with the title of your article.  Those who have their finger on the pulse of this (rather than just tracking certain political and poll numbers today,) and who know all the organizations that have been set up and alliances that have been set up, say the opposite.

        Read this article by Frederick Clarkson's article at PRN, Christian Right Seeks Renewal in Deepening Catholic Protestant Alliance.  A review of which is posted on Fred's website:

        Simon Brown, writing in the November 2013 issue of Church & State magazine, has picked-up on my recent article in The Public Eye.  He observes that far from the Religious Right being dead (as has been so frequently declared by people who really ought to know better) it is “alive and kicking” and epitomized by the regressive alliance between the Catholic Bishops and the Protestant evangelical Christian Right.
        Your assertions:
        But my argument is that such movement legislatively is at a peak as public opinion moves away from what seems more normative.

        My argument in short is that the religious right's clear social loss on marriage equality is a harbinger of things to come.

        are based on theoretical assumptions on your definition of normative (a highly subjective measure,) and one short time period of 'legislative movement,' and then you base your conclusion on these highly subjective assumptions.  Poor steps in logic and reasoning.

        And to repeat, your leaping assertions and conclusions, do a great disservice to the cause.  You know, there is a vast amount of information and understanding of the code of language that is required to understand the depth and breadth of the fundmentalist movements today.  Making sweeping judgements and conclusions from one short term change, is judging what is going on by the tip of the iceberg while not having a clue as to what is going on under the water.

        That worked out well for the Titanic, eh?

        "The corporate state’s repression, now on the brink of totalitarianism, would with the help of Christie, his corporate backers ... become a full-blown corporate fascism.' http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_trouble_with_chris_christie_20140112

        by SeaTurtle on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:51:30 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I wholly accept your critiques, and admit that (32+ / 0-)

          definitions here, such as normative, are indeed subjective.

          Additionally, this indeed is an opinion piece which is conjecturing about future trends based on current environments. Whether or not I'm wrong will be borne out over time. However, I would argue that such a piece should motivate people to work harder politically to make this a reality, rather than make people complacent.

          "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

          by David Harris Gershon on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 08:05:44 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, its exactly the same logical error (13+ / 0-)

          that climate deniers make when they think a few nice or cold weather days means the whole global warming thing is a crock.

          I think your observations are absolutely right. We've had a few nice days.

          Remember to kick it over.

          by sprogga on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 08:17:42 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Why are old enemies aligning? (5+ / 0-)

          Is it because of growth?  Or is is because they realize both will be lost unless they unite against the common enemy of secularism?  It could be either.

          “Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.” - John Steinbeck (Disputed)

          by RichM on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 10:03:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  old enemies aligning? (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Odysseus, DavidMS, StrayCat
            Why are old enemies aligning?

            Is it because of growth?  Or is is because they realize both will be lost unless they unite against the common enemy of secularism?  It could be either.

            It's both.

            The door was opened after the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II) laid down the concept of the "new Ecumenism", whereunder Catholics were essentially ordered to accept Protestants as "separated brethren" rather than the enemies of humankind that ordinary Catholics had been taught before to view Protestants as. (Especially evangelical Protestants.)

            The fundamentalist-evangelical flavor of Protestant Christians then came out of the woodwork politically, making common cause with Catholics in the political arena while fundagelical doctrines and practices (like neopentecostalism) crept into Catholic practice.

            One of our diarist's points is that there are signs that this alliance is beginning to deteriorate, as the basic differences between historically authentic Christianity (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy) and the johnny-come-lately evangelicals re-commence eating at the seam-welds of an always fragile alliance.

            "It's high time (and then some) that we put an end to the exceptionalistic nonsense floating around in our culture and face the fact that either the economy works for all, or it doesn't work AT all." -- Sean McCullough (DailyKos user thanatokephaloides)

            by thanatokephaloides on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 01:55:27 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  a small note to the above (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              k9disc, StrayCat, Stentor, chrisculpepper

              When I said:

              One of our diarist's points is that there are signs that this alliance is beginning to deteriorate, as the basic differences between historically authentic Christianity (Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy) and the johnny-come-lately evangelicals re-commence eating at the seam-welds of an always fragile alliance.
              I was not intending to pass judgment on any specific person's religious choices; but I was attempting to illustrate the deep-seated conflicts between fundamentalist evangelical Protestants and members of Christian denominations which can prove they were in open business during the first half of Christianity's existence.

              As my background is Roman Catholic, I'm accustomed to a certain way of stating these things. And, re-reading my comment, I now realize that it could be construed so as to offend fundagelicals because they are fundagelicals. I realize I should have used more level-headed language there.

              I apologize for any such problems.

                  -- Sean McCullough

              "It's high time (and then some) that we put an end to the exceptionalistic nonsense floating around in our culture and face the fact that either the economy works for all, or it doesn't work AT all." -- Sean McCullough (DailyKos user thanatokephaloides)

              by thanatokephaloides on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 05:48:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

        •  There is a bit of a difference between (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
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          the Catholic Bishops and the Protestant evangelical Christian Right
          and all Catholics and Protestants, mainly the fact that they are minority subgroups of their respective religions.

          ''The guarding of military and diplomatic secrets at the expense of informed representative government provides no real security for our Republic.'' - Justice Hugo L. Black of the Supreme Court

          by geekydee on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 10:29:45 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Not just abortion rights (12+ / 0-)

          Whole anti-science agenda on climate change, contraception, teaching evolution by natural selection in schools, UN treaty on the rights of the child.  I realize the Catholic Church does not necessarily march lock step with the American Christian Right on all these but their alliance on sex-related matters increases overall power on the rest.
          I think we are hardly seeing death throes here, perhaps just a loss on gay rights, not on anything else.

          •  ~ (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IowaBiologist, Stentor

            respectability.

            Normal people are sick of it - they are holding us back from protecting our people and securing our future.

            The Masters of the Universe, I'm sure, are starting to see them as a political liability - which will mean no more corporate sponsored bus trips and they'll have to start distancing themselves instead of ignoring them.

            Those riding the fence, who knows how that is possible these days, but those riding the fence will be peeled off as the public face of the Religious Right laps satire (yet again).

            So they're toast as a respectable institution, but they're many millions. I expect continued radicalization which will make their public respectability continue to plummet.

            But they still own the faith and support of millions of people who believe, wholeheartedly in the dogma, and that's really scary. I mean how many million people, isolated politically, and holding a grudge against secular society?

            Sounds like a rerun to me.

            They also hold many positions of great power and have great influence on people who hold those positions, and as a demographic they provide a large and compliant market.

            Again, it sounds like a potential rerun, but their legitimacy as a market I think provides for a fresh twist and makes it more of a spin off.

            Peace~

            Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

            by k9disc on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:47:10 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I felt the same in reading it, but David (5+ / 0-)

          is taking a social pulse instead of political or institutional, and I think he's right on that front. It is a good thing that their ascent has peaked socially.

          I think you and Frederick are correct in that this is but the tip of the iceberg. How many other pillars are there? Or whatever the hell they call the various institutions they seek to infiltrate and influence? Seven?

          I'm also concerned about the metastasization of this movement that you mention.

          Thanks for posting this comment.

          Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

          by k9disc on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:33:47 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  you are welcome and thanks for your comment (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            k9disc, Stentor

            "The corporate state’s repression, now on the brink of totalitarianism, would with the help of Christie, his corporate backers ... become a full-blown corporate fascism.' http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the_trouble_with_chris_christie_20140112

            by SeaTurtle on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 11:09:30 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  I think the diarist is 100% correct (4+ / 0-)

          and I completely admit that my reasons for thinking so are based on the feel of the wind rather than anything scientific.  

          These bills- like the Arizona one- are the hail-marys at the end of a losing game.  It's time to throw everything they can and see if anything sticks.  They are literally coming out of the woodwork and admitting that their legislation is repressive and reactionary and based on nothing- not science, not reason, not basic humanity- but only on religious bigotry and blind faith.  

          The days of gays being a shadowy, poorly-understood menace, easy to paint as the boogeyman flavor of the week, are long, long gone.  Most people under 50 (and a great number of those over 50) know that gay people are not evil, or degenerates, or sexual predators, nor do they have cooties.  Nowadays most people have an openly gay family member, friend, colleague, or at least like a celebrity who is gay.  Firsthand knowledge kills prejudice.  Once dispelled, those prejudices can't be re-installed using nothing but bluster and BS.  What is going to make people start hating gays enough to let crap like this stick to the wall?  It's sure not going to be because some loser in a suit and a nice haircut is whining that the Bible says so, according to him, and you'd better believe it or you're going to hell.

          Odds and ends about life in Japan: 1971wolfie.wordpress.com

          by Hatrax on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 10:06:46 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  In addition, the younger generation (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            apimomfan2, StrayCat, chrisculpepper

            has been raised with the idea that being gay is a perfectly normal way to be, no different than having different eye, hair, or skin colors.  THIS is what the RR fears the most, this is their doom, and this is why they are panicking and coming out of hiding to fly their bigotry full frontal.  Prejudice is hard to re-install in those who have gotten past it; it is damn near impossible to ignite it in people who are culturally immune to it.  

            Odds and ends about life in Japan: 1971wolfie.wordpress.com

            by Hatrax on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 10:10:44 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  The demographics are key here (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hatrax, Damaged262

            Hatrax hits one important point dead on: the reason Arizona and Florida generate so much more of this noise than any other two states is simple: They're the two states where Old White People go to retire. And (apart from a few far-fringe boomers and Xers, of the sort that have always been with us), Old White People are the only ones really left who are willing to vote for this crap.

            The good news is that they're killing themselves with their own organizational ability. Every single one of these last-ditch bones they hurl at their shrinking base just turns off more of the young'uns. Barna and Pew now have years of data showing that even 80%+ of Evangelical Xers and Millennials just want the gay wars to stop. They've had a bellyful of the hate. It embarrasses them, and it makes them ashamed of their churches and their faith.

            Unfortunately, despite all of this, the Republican state-level victories of 2010 mean that we're going to be living with this until 2020, when rapidly changing demographics will finally be reflected in many states' redistricting. Until then, we'll keep getting more of this nonsense -- and the level of disgust coming from the younger generations will only rise with each new assault.

            So our author is not wrong: the religious right as we've known it is going to be pushed back. But it's going to happen perhaps a bit more slowly than he hopes.

        •  An observation from a slightly different end (5+ / 0-)

          Hi there,

          I am gay - let me say that upfront.  I was orphaned in my mid-teens and spent a number of years in the AoG (Assemblies of God - a Pentecostal denomination) at that time.  the AoG was about the same size it is now, despite all the enormous amount of proselytizing it does.  The big dog in the room of fundamentalism (The Southern Baptists) claimed and could show about 24 million regular attendees in 1980.  In 2010 the director of membership for the SB said that they had MAYBE 7 million regular attendees now, although they still claim 14 million.  He said something like "if you mean people who attend at least once a month, maybe 7 million, or a bit more."  As a result they have closed at least one seminary, because they can no longer support it.  The megachurches, which have about 3 million members between them are not ALL conservative and if they were (many are) they don't even make up the gap between the claimed and real figures in the SB.

          Don't get me wrong, they still have money, many of the  institutions are endowed, and the members vote whenever possible, including in primaries, which gives them disproportionate power in a society where it is rare that much more than 50% of the total population votes at all - but they are NOT the powerhouse that they were.

          Furthermore most of their leaders realize that.  That is what is pushing the alliance with conservative Catholics - despite the fact that when I was in AoG  nearly all fundie churches taught that Rome was the Great Whore of Babylon from the Revelation of St. John the Divine.  And then there is the international strategy that was originally proposed by Doug Coe (The Family, See Sharlett's book of the same name if interested), one of the most powerful and least noticed Right wing leaders.  He suggested, years ago, that the Evangelicals focus on getting developing countries to adopt agendas opposing gay rights and thus "surround" the First world states and force them to reconsider the gay rights policies and personal beliefs that he said, even then, were inevitable.  Finally the far Right is listening to him -- Scott LIvely (a man whom I have personally debated by email and a man who is now to stand trial for crimes against humanity) when to both Uganda where he spoke to Parliamentary leaders and to Russia where he spoke to the Duma.  He is deeply connected to Coe and so are others who have traveled to the countries that, even now are passing draconian anti-gay laws.

          You are correct that we must not lower our guard here, but that is always true.  You are incorrect that the far Right is highly dangerous here now.  They are making a real effort, but they are only  highly dangerous because of what they can do elsewhere.   Here they face the increasing acceptance by the elites in what Lofgren and others call the "Deep Government" that social issues like homosexuality don't really matter, and that as long as gays contribute to the economy they are fine.   (  http://billmoyers.com/...  )   That logic plays out publicly (see the comments made about gay money by real people re: Arizona) at an increasing rate.  What might still make them dangerous (fundies) is IF Coe's strategy succeeds, because ultimately, if its good for business the "Deep Government" elites will support it, and if its bad for business, they will do anything to oppose it.  It is important that we not allow the Religious Right the luxury of turning the entire developing world with their emerging markets against us.   If we can do that, the Religious Right's members  continue to age out, and the plurality of their own youth (those who remain in their churches when they don't have to)support gay marriage rights, with majorities supporting other equality measures into the future.

        •  Tip of the iceberg? (0+ / 0-)

          Sea Turtle--you may be correct about this; however, the demographics are against your position.  More and more younger people are LEAVING Christianity in large part because of these ugly, medieval stances on social politics.  

          The only way I can see that the fundamentalist, extreme conservative views will prevail is if they are able to seize all power in the country and become dictators.  I don't think that will happen, but unfortunately, it's not impossible.

      •  Death Pangs of the Religious Right: nope (28+ / 0-)

        Unfortunately, no.

        They lost the Scopes Monkey Trial in 1925: their battle to erase the teaching of Evolution in U.S. schools is still being waged 90 years later.

        And recently gained ground in brainwashing their base:

        Just 43 percent of self-identified Republicans in America believe that humans and other living beings evolved over time, according to a newly released Pew Research Center poll.  The figure has fallen sharply from 54 percent in a similar survey taken in 2009.
        http://blog.seattlepi.com/...

        Never doubt the obstinacy and zombie-like staying power of the Religious Right.

        However, I grant you they've lost ground in their war against Teh Gays.

        •  Liars lie - even to themselves (15+ / 0-)

          I think this poll result shows more of a tribal 'circle the wagons' phenomenon.

          I don't believe 54%, or even 43% of republicans actually doubt evolution.

          But they sure as shit won't admit to it, especially if they think that could be used against them.

          And they have pretty good imaginations when it comes to paranoid fantasies of persecution.  Projection, anyone?

          Pretty damn depressing, either way.  Is 'asshole' just a basic personality type?  Will there always be a large percentage of assholes among us?  Can it be cured, or at least controlled?  We can only hope...


          The Fail will continue until actual torches and pitchforks are set in motion. - Pangolin@kunstler.com

          by No one gets out alive on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 09:50:12 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I disagree (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Damaged262

            The GOP base becomes more and more powerful within the party  and a lot of rational people have now adopted the independent label even if voting GOP. I very much suspect that only 43% of those who now identify as Republican believe in evolution.  

        •  Actually the Right won the Scopes trial (11+ / 0-)

          The verdict was overturned on a technicality--the technicality being that Scopes had ended his career as a teacher.

        •  BOOM! Cognitive Dissonance be gone! (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          apimomfan2

          What a truly salient point. We keep thinking it's a new era and a new age, and yet we have nearly exactly the same problem.

          That's so crazy.

          Thanks for this.

          Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

          by k9disc on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 07:49:32 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  Interesting that you mention Scopes (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Damaged262

          You're right on one thing: the right wing has always been with us, and always will be.

          But the religious right, in particular, ebbs and flows. Generally, they slither out of their hidey holes, organize, seize power, and take over for a while. Inevitably, though, there comes a point where they begin to marinate in their own hypocrisy to the point where they finally overreach -- and saner Americans decide they've had a bellyful of them. At that point, they're roundly ridiculed back under their rocks, where they tend to stay for 3-4 decades before another generation slithers forth to seize power again.

          Scopes is interesting because it was the peak moment of overreach on the last cycle. Fundamentalism had been on a real roll for about 30 years at that point, and had introduced a lot of craziness that people were starting to find exasperatingly retrograde. The trial crystalized the nation's annoyance at fundie moralizing: everybody finally got a long, hard look at just what was at stake. Even though Bryan won the trial, his movement lost pretty much everything else that mattered in the aftermath.

          After Scopes, fundamentalism was laughed back under its rock. And it stayed there for the next 40 years. We were too busy with depression, war, and rebuilding the country -- all struggles that required a heavy reliance on scientific pragmatism -- to have much truck with that crap. Yes, the folks were still there; but their national image was awful, and nobody who wanted to associate themselves with the new, rising educated middle class would be seen anywhere near them. They had no media reach, no political power, no real authority over anyone who mattered. Those were some good years.

          Now, the religious right's increasingly insane policy proposals are a clear sign that it's barreling straight for another rendezvous with that same wall. Increasingly, you can't be considered sane or serious in this country if you're standing anywhere near these jokers. They're making themselves socially and politically toxic. And just about everybody under 50 in the country is rapidly coming to understand that. It's about time.

      •  agreed as the abortion issue is different from (5+ / 0-)

        marriage equality and LGBT issues as far as the religious right's involvement and advocacy. I have worked with and I have known people who are not religious at all who are forced birthers. There are many non religious people who are anti women and anti womens health issues and who rant and rave against Planned Parenthood. Ie, most are just followers of the Republican rhetoric on that issue.

        But that is not the same as the marriage equality issue as most opposed to marriage equality and to equal rights are religious and part of the religious right.

        The religious right is losing and losing consistently and badly on the equality issues.

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        by wishingwell on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 09:45:40 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think the diary is on the right track (14+ / 0-)

          We have seen huge wins in the gay rights area. There have been many many brave people who have come out and they have been welcomed. Public opinion has been moved by these good folks.

          But on abortion, the slut shamers have somehow won the war. It would be helpful if some of the famous and powerful women would come out and say, "I had an abortion, and I'm a good person. Its a personal decision that's protected by law. Nobody can interfere in this part of my life, its between me and my God."

          People, its not something to be ashamed of, we are being brainwashed. That's why they keep getting away with beating up on abortion. If we want to keep this right we're going to have to take it to the street.  

          A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

          by onionjim on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 10:29:01 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Moral Monday is exactly on this. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            wishingwell, apimomfan2

            They have organized huge rallies all around I think SC and other states.. the pics of their crowds are amazing.

            A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

            by onionjim on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 10:49:57 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I think I can explain this (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Stentor

            You are not going to like what I say, and I apologize. I am explaining the situation, and I feel confident that I am correct - but it won't make you feel better, I'm sorry.

            On gay issues -- homosexuals are PEOPLE.  They are not Martians, they are not dropped down full blown from an alien satellite or grown in special fields.  In the old days no one realized they knew anyone who was gay, so it was easy to demonize them as "other" - then more and more people came to know someone gay - to be friends with someone gay - to have a gay brother or sister or cousin or whatever.  Why?  Not because there were more gays, because gays stopped hiding, at least some of them.  When gays stopped being "them" and became "Joe" or "Sally," or "Fred," they were no longer other, and of course Joe deserved equal rights, and how dare that horrible old fanatic kick Sally out of the apartment she had rented for 5 years just because Debra came to live with her and what do you mean that Fred can't keep his job because he's gay... and (as was predicted by some religious Right leaders, btw) people demanded that the bigotry change, because it wasn't about them, it became about us (which it always was but people didn't know).

            On abortion -- Fetuses are, like it or not, going to develop into PEOPLE.  They are not going to turn into Martians or (probably) be taken back as alien changelings by a  space station.  Yes, absolutely they are incapable of surviving outside the womb, but a man on intravenous is incapable of surviving, quite often, if taken off it.  It would be without question murder to remove him from it however.  People instinctively understand that. We say its the woman's right to her body, but deep inside something says "but if it were her bed, and a man was in it and was being treated for something and was going to get better, but would die if moved now, the law would NEVER permit him to be moved, and to move him would be murder.  So then we get into technicalities about blastocysts and brainwaves - but deep inside something says "its not a dog or a pig or a kitten, its a human - this is murder."  That's why many non religious people oppose all abortion.

            My partner and I use mental gymnastics to support abortion in the first trimester, because we understand that feminists are our allies and we should be theirs.  Those who oppose abortion also very often want us dead -- but... after that?  No, I don't buy abortion on demand all trimesters. I can't.  I want the guy on trial for aborting fetuses that COULD have lived outside the womb to go to prison for murder.  I absolutely oppose selective abortion to get rid of babies because they are female not male (which is more common that I expected it to be in the First world).  I do not support abortion as birth control... and neither do most people.  You have to realize that a true minority are totally comfortable with abortion, even many of us who support it want it, as Hillary says, safe, legal and rare - and frankly, I think if most of the abortion opponents weren't so hateful on so many other things, it would have disappeared a long time ago.  Their hate of all other things (race, orientation, etc.) has blunted their effectiveness in advocating what they say is their primary issue.  That has been a real boon to choice advocates.  Birth control should be free and totally available - and people should use it - that would help attain the safe, legal and rare standard, btw.  If you aren't pregnant you don't need an abortion.

            In any event, that's why -- it will be a human being.  You may argue, but that's in most people's gut and that is why opposition to abortion is so stubborn and unmoving and why even many supporters are far softer on it than you might prefer.

            •  And yet this is a recent attitude (0+ / 0-)

              Surprisingly, before 1976 Protestants generally did not oppose the right to abortion even all the way to the Southern Fundamentalist Right.  Read the book "Broken Words: The Abuse of Science and Faith in American Politics" by Jonathan Dudley, to read an overview of how right-wingers suddenly closed ranks with their hated Catholic brethren on this issue because of a huckster named Francis Schaeffer, who tied abortion to vague conspiracy theories that those nasty liberal (gay) Eastern elites had us on the slippery slope to forced euthanasia of "Real" Americans.  All that followed is simply justification and manipulation.  

              Not surprising to me that after white Southerners had looked like ogres for attacking Dr. King's nonviolent protestors, supporting the war in Vietnam, etc., they were hungry for a way to depict themselves as the victims or defenders of same, and liberals and feminists as the oppressors.  Self-victimization is the great political strategy of the TV age.

          •  I have recently read of 2 theories on why violent (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Damaged262

            crime rates went down over past few decades: 1) Removing lead from gasoline and most everything else spared a lot of babies and children from lead poisoning, 2) legal abortions meant that a lot of babies were aborted who would otherwise have been born to poverty-stricken single mothers with poor to no parenting skills leading to the babies growing up either neglected or abused and thus driven to crime or insanity.

        •  forced birthers (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          wishingwell, BYw, Stentor
          agreed as the abortion issue is different from marriage equality and LGBT issues as far as the religious right's involvement and advocacy. I have worked with and I have known people who are not religious at all who are forced birthers. There are many non religious people who are anti women and anti womens health issues and who rant and rave against Planned Parenthood. Ie, most are just followers of the Republican rhetoric on that issue.
          That "Republican rhetoric" is written for them by the Religious Rightists.

          And it's sometimes entertaining to ask non-religious supporters of this nonsense to justify their positions.

          Especially if you keep Occam's Razor well stropped and close at hand.

          "It's high time (and then some) that we put an end to the exceptionalistic nonsense floating around in our culture and face the fact that either the economy works for all, or it doesn't work AT all." -- Sean McCullough (DailyKos user thanatokephaloides)

          by thanatokephaloides on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 02:01:25 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I have confronted an atheist republican we know (8+ / 0-)

            and he ends up getting angry, blow ups and shouts

            I could care less about the goddamn social issues and

            religious issues. I am am atheist but we have to take the good with the bad in order to keep the Republican party from falling apart. So I will adopt the platform, good and bad, if it means lower taxes..as all I care about is small government , low taxes, and getting rid of entitlements .
            In other words, all he cares about is the rich and the republican party, he puts up with the religious nuts, as he calls him, if it means more Republican votes.

            Keystone Liberals on Twitter @ KeystoneLibs , Join PA Liberals at http://keystoneliberalsforum.aimoo.com/

            by wishingwell on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 02:09:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Not difficult at all (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Stentor

            Read my prior post. We reluctantly support abortion rights, but believe as Hillary says in safe, legal and rare.   Please read my prior post, at the moment directly above yours.  It may not resonate in your heart, but it resonates in almost everyone's that I know, including more than one person who would vote to keep abortion legal (including us)  I have deep questions about what we cause with our support. I know other people who do as well. It is not a cut and dried issue, nor is it settled.  The religious right certainly did not write our position, we are neo-Pagan - and I know RR theology very well, I spent a few years in AoG - but what I wrote above is valid as an explanation and if you can't hear those who disagree with you -  really hear them - your influence is lost because you are responding to a bogeyman, not reality.

          •  If the fetus has a right to life, a mother forced (0+ / 0-)

            to bear should have a right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  Forced birthers should be forced to pay for all healthcare necessary to carry the fetus to term plus pay the mother of the unwanted fetus for her loss of time carrying the fetus and to take full responsibility for rearing the fetus once born.  If the forced birther manages to get money from adoptive parents for the baby that defrays some part of the expense, I consider paying the mother for her loss of time the moral equivalent of the exercise of the right of eminent domain and paying a fair price for real estate confiscated to make way for a public building.

        •  Yes. It's possible to raise objections to abortion (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Stentor

          that do not depend solely on one particular religious perspective, and that actually have some legitimacy (though I personally think that the loss of personal autonomy resulting from banning/heavily restricting abortion is a much greater evil). For example, some women oppose abortion because they believe it makes it easier for husbands to cheat. You can think whatever you want about that rationale, but it doesn't require adopting one highly specific religious worldview to consider.

          Anti-gay arguments, on the other hand, always boil down to either violations of specific religious dogmas or to personal disgust. Thus they can only appeal to a very narrow demographic, or to genuinely uninformed people (a group which in this case is shrinking rapidly now that nearly everyone personally knows someone who's affected by the animus).

          Unfortunately when smart and educated people get crazy ideas they can come up with plausibly truthy arguments. -- Andrew F Cockburn

          by ebohlman on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 02:53:43 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  The abortions restrictions are very unpopular (15+ / 0-)

        These restrictions were not voted into law by the public, they were enacted against the will of most of the people  in the state. The demonstrations in Texas and Virginia certainly show that this was not the will of the people. I expect that if the state legislature changes hands in the next election these restrictions will be overturned.  Further, person-hood amendments have failed miserably when voted on by the public in even the reddest of red states. The Religious Right used to count on massive voter turn-out to get their agenda passed. No more. They have to rely on legislative tricks to get their laws enacted and many of these laws are being challenged as unconstitutional.

        "That being said, I do agree I am going to hell. But for other reasons. Mostly boring tax stuff ' Amy Pohler

        by Annie B on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 10:27:50 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I remember voting for free abortion in New York in (0+ / 0-)

          mid to late 60s because I believed there might be situations in which pregnancy would be so imminently life-threatening that it would be best to leave it up to the judgment of the attending physician as to whether or not abortion is necessary to save the life of the mother.  For cases where the problem is that the woman so very much can not afford the child, it should be enough to allow any mother of a baby up to one month old to leave it at any hospital or police station and merely sign a quite claim deed on it so government can arrange adoption without having to worry about the mother changing her mind.

      •  re: "a harbinger of things to come" (4+ / 0-)

        I recall that when NC passed it's anti marriage amendment recently that one of the prominent politicians, though I forget who, commented publicly that it would be a temporary "victory" at best.  He claimed that within 20 years the amendment would be repealed because of the difference in how younger demographics view the issue and when they become the majority, the discriminatory stance will no longer be tolerated.

        "It's not surveillance, it's data collection to keep you safe"

        by blackhand on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 11:27:36 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I tend to agree with DHG... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        OldDragon, manyamile, StrayCat, Stentor

        which is not to say that there are not some deadly serious concerns on reproductive freedom--some nightmarish laws are in effect in way too many states.
        That said, I will quote my friend Cathy, a poli sci prof in a red state and an all-around smart woman: "My demographics can beat up your politics."
        Or put a little more bluntly: these folks are old, white, and very religious; the country is getting younger, browner, and more secular by the day.
        At some level, the religious right leaders know this, which explains the desperate, "Hail-Mary pass" quality of so much of what they propose.
        $.02

        Insert your own pithy comment/angry screed/wise homily right here!

        by StratCat on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 02:53:08 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  gay marriage seems different (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        scottdc, Stentor

        Someone correct me if I am wrong.  It seemed to me that a group of Republican intellectuals, some of them gay I'd suppose, started leading the fight in the Courts to allow for gay marriage and similar rights--following on to the efforts of gays in the 50's, 60's etc..  It not until those folk got involved that we started seeing shifts among the Republicans.  

        I'm not seeing anything like that among the Republicans talking about the rise of so called religious rights, as in those who argue that unless they can discriminate against heretics then their own  freedom and religious rights are  being violated.

        I'm seeing the BircherKochtea party ads advancing this "religious freedom" ruse and a rise of money being funneled to  legal groups filing suit throughout the country.

        Superstition never goes away.  Some people always live by it.  Goes up and down but I bet its been fairly steady since the beginning of this country, rising in times of economic crisis.  Oh, bless all those (heretics) who differ with my opinion.

        “Everyone is ignorant, only on different subjects.” ― Will Rogers (Of course this also applies to me.)

        by MugWumpBlues on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 04:41:40 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Another aspect is the idea that passing laws (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Damaged262

        like these force the Supreme court to strike them down as unconstitutional, thereby fueling the notion that 'the big bad gubmint in washintun' is , well, bad.

        This fuels the 'teabagger express'.

      •  Come November of 2014 (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        thanatokephaloides, Damaged262

        I'm hoping that the public is so sick & tired of this puritanical scolding mentality of the GOP & produces a Democratic tsunami that washes the GOP out of the Federal & State governments to the status of a minority party to an even lower point than that of the FDR Administration.

        So keep it up Republicans & conservatives, keep digging that electoral hole even deeper. Here, here's some shovels, brand new, would you like an anvil or two?

        The only 2 rhetorical tools Republicans ever seem to use are the logical fallacies of false dichotomy, and false equivalence.

        by Stentor on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 01:55:41 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  I WISH you were correct. (0+ / 0-)

        I FEAR you are not.  Women in particular are losing rights, either defacto or dejura, that we've held since the 1970s.  In my home state, legislation has twice been brought before the State House to ban hormonal birth control, and I am certain it will be brought up again.

      •  Clinic bombings worked (0+ / 0-)

        It was the combination of extremist electoral politics and violent terrorism that allowed a minority to bully a majority into restricting abortion access.  That was their prototype for what they will do to destroy the Constitution, restrict voting rights and keep themselves on top until they're no longer useful to the oligarchy.  But their true model was Jim Crow.  How many Klansmen or clinic bombers does it take to tyrannize people for generations?  They like those odds.

      •  is a harbinger of things to come. (0+ / 0-)

        I sure hope so. I'm soooooo tired of their BS

    •  Darkest before Dawn- n/t (0+ / 0-)

      Evidence that contradicts the ruling belief system is held to extraordinary standards, while evidence that entrenches it is uncritically accepted. -Carl Sagan

      by RF on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 06:18:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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