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View Diary: My Answer (765 comments)

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  •  Hey, Ray, I got three things to say (20+ / 0-)

    First and foremost, this is a really neat diary.  I read through the comments on Kos's post and it's clear that you did, too.  Not only did you read them, but you digested them and came up with some ideas for what you can do to improve your blogging.  Very commendable, what a great example for all and a reminder for me personally (sometimes I don't deal well with criticism,  but I've spent a lifetime working on it and don't intend to stop.) Am grateful for this good example.

    Second, which is a lead in to the third, I haven't read the comments to this diary so if I'm suggesting something someone else already has, please forgive the redundancy.

    Third, there was a long thread in Kos's blog about the whole "mendacity" thing.  I think an apology may be in order.  I, for one, learned a new vocabulary word... I knew vaguely what mendacity meant having run into it on occasion in my reading over the decades, but I never knew it specifically meant lying.  At any rate, everyone fucks up now and then but not everyone owns up to it.  Grown-ups do, though, and grown-ups also don't over-react to someone admitting a fuck-up because they're self aware enough to know they've fucked-up, too.

    Peace, bro.

    If I have any spit left after I've licked my own wounds, I'll be glad to consider licking yours. Peace.

    by nancyjones on Tue Feb 25, 2014 at 08:34:22 PM PST

    •  I think it would go a very long way (4+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nancyjones, Hey338Too, Catte Nappe, Matt Z

      for Ray to show that level of grace.

      I take this diary in the spirit in which I believe it's offered, but the mendacity bit, as well as Ray's sophistry in defending/denying the meaning of the remark, still leave me a bit sour.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 06:07:10 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  This is an honest question: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Johnny Q

        I'm fully aware about the meaning of "mendacity."  It means "untruthfulness."

        I'm not going to get into the intricacies of the debate and the person I was debating with; people can look up the exchange if they feel so inclined...

        But, do you think there is a difference at all in saying to someone "You are a liar," and saying that an argument is mendacious?

        I'm fully aware that in both instances the claim is that something is not true.

        But when it comes to rhetoric and debate, would you not agree that there is a difference (in tone at least) between saying to someone "You are a liar," and "that argument is mendacious?"

        That's okay if you think they are exactly the same thing; I would of course disagree, but I'm just curious as to your direct answer.

        •  A fair question: (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Hey338Too

          "But, do you think there is a difference at all in saying to someone "You are a liar," and saying that an argument is mendacious?"

          I think there is a distinction, and that distinction is without a difference. Either way you're accusing someone of deliberately speaking an untruth. Using a four-syllable word instead of a one-syllable word does't alter that, and there's only a hair's breadth of difference between "You are lying" and "You are a liar."

          If anything, Ray, I found your remarks more dishonorable than simply calling him a liar because you made them with characteristic passive aggression ("some would say" when it was obvious that "Ray Pensador would say") and used that passive aggression and the hair's breadth distinction to deny that you had done anything wrong.

          You gave me an honest question, and I hope you receive this as an honest answer, whether or not you agree with it.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:59:40 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I do see this as an honest answer, although I (0+ / 0-)

            disagree with the characterizations.

            •  As is your absolute right. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Sylv, Hey338Too

              Opinions are like assholes. We all have one, and they all stink.

              I guess the details aside, ultimately, I would like to see you eschew passive aggression in future. Speak plainly, say what you mean, mean what you say. Avoid weasel words like "Some would say", phrasing an accusation as a question, using less-common, more academic-sounding words ("mendacity" for "lie", for example, or "cognitive infiltrators" for "trolls") or otherwise making accusations by implication. Speaking only for myself,  but I suspect that I'm not alone in this, such tactics leave me feeling inherently mistrustful of the speaker, and thusly negatively disposed toward him or her.

              Of course, I say that mindful of the fact that we all play the game of toeing the line of the site rules of conduct to a certain extent, and it would be unfair of me to expect you to avoid playing that game any more than the rest of us.

              Again -- this is just one guy's stinky opinion. Take what you like and leave the rest.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:13:02 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  This will be my last reply: Is it okay if (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                aliasalias

                I characterize your exchange as curt, vulgar, and offensive, and that it is incredibly naive to think that one can tell a writer how to write?

                I'm just taking you on, on your own suggestion about being direct.

                And in this last exchange, hopefully you will see that I'm not questioning your motives; I'm just saying it like I see it.

                •  Well, it was vulgar, (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Ray Pensador, Hey338Too

                  it was not intended to be offensive but I can definitely understand why you would legitimately regard it as offensive, but I really take exception to you calling it "curt". I was not brief at all.

                  But if you do choose to characterize my remarks that way, I'd much rather you do so directly like you did, so there's progress there, at least.

                  But I'll also take that as an admonition that you do not welcome my stinky editorial opinions, and will bear that in mind in future.

                  "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                  by raptavio on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:32:31 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

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