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  •  A few comments (7+ / 0-)

    This diary, frankly, is a "no-pology" -- especially here:

    but from now on I will endeavor not to ever use the words "troll," "sockpuppet," "cognitive infiltrator," and similar terms to refer to any group of users here based on behavioral patterns.  What I was attempting to do was to call attention to the behavior exhibited by users whom I believed to be persistently disrupting the discussion in my diaries' comment threads, but after further consideration, I've come to the conclusion that doing so is counter-productive as many of both, my critics, and my supporters have pointed out.

    Finally I'm willing to extend an olive branch to people with whom I've had strong disagreements with in the past and wipe the slate clean. That means that I'm willing to engage any one of them in discussion and debate without prejudice or bias (based on perceived past grievances), as time allows.

    The problem is that you have written, on innumerable occasions, diaries that contain blatantly false assertions of fact, as well as extremely dubious non-verifiable (and indeed non-falsifiable) analytic claims.

    Because this is a discussion forum, the basic idea is that when participants see claims that are wrong, or worse, ludicrous and embarrassing to the site, we are encouraged, as part of the "debate" to say, "that's wrong; here are the facts."

    You have always interpreted any factual counter claims to be "disruption."

    Not only have you done so in the past -- but you are doing so in this very diary in the language I've highlighted.

    Until you admit that you do not possess papal infallibility and that therefore not every factual counter claim made in comments to your diaries is "disruption," then so far this "olive branch" rings hollow.

    Secondly, I would encourage you not only to engage people who disagree with you, but to swear off "gaming the system" with you followers, by abusing the HR system and worse, trying to get people banned simply for disagreeing with you.

    •  Not looking good so far, since Ray's MO (7+ / 0-)

      was to allow others to abuse the disagreement, and merely provide the reason to do so.

      And therefore this exchange with me from one of the posters guaranteed to abuse any disagreement in Ray's diary, and in fact, sometimes when there wasn't disagreement:

      http://www.dailykos.com/...

      It seems that you're not alone in thinking that Ray isn't really apologizing when Deadhead is still characterizing my appearances as "trolling" and getting eight recs for it.  Clearly, they want it both ways: to get applause for Ray's stated intent to reform and to repeat the thesis that disagreement is trolling anyway.

      Is Ray's intent good?  Dunno.  We'll see if he asks deadhead to stand down.

      The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

      by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 09:02:07 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And then Amber said to Tiffany... (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        CenPhx, Johnny Q, poligirl, 4kedtongue

        gmafb

        •  Shrug. Meta is like that, I suppose, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poco, Hey338Too

          but I'm not sure why you picked my comment to criticize it, instead of complaining about the meta diary.

          Care to elaborate?

          The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

          by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 09:32:29 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  I'm characterizing your appearances that way... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poligirl, TheMomCat

        because they are.

        It isn't limited to Ray's diaries, and I'm not the only one looks at them that way.

        I'm sorry if you don't like having it pointed out to you.




        Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

        by DeadHead on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:22:12 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  worth (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          poligirl, WB Reeves, Sylv, Hey338Too, TheMomCat

          noting that kos said nothing about restricting criticism of others.

          He just did not want too many accusations of people being plants.

          The internet is crazy. It is like people arguing about what kind of cheese to throw at a portrait, in order to destroy it completely

          by GideonAB on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:38:05 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  We'll see if Ray condones your posts. (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          WB Reeves, poco, Sylv, Hey338Too, second gen

          After all, you're not the one who is pretending to take suggestions on behavior, and nobody expects anything better than your usual.  

          All that remains is whether Ray condones your behavior in his diaries, and if he does, he's confirming that his MO hasn't changed at all despite pretty words.  

          The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

          by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:39:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're just making shit up, now. (5+ / 4-)

            Like Karl Rove does.




            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

            by DeadHead on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:36:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Blatant shill accusation. And not just any (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              raptavio, Hey338Too

              shill, but the big daddy of shills.

              Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

              by PsychoSavannah on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 07:18:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Let's see if anyone uprates this. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Hey338Too

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 07:24:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  That is not an accusation of being ... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheMomCat, DeadHead, poligirl

                ....a shill.  He is calling him a liar.

                Now I know since kos came down with his edict about calling people shills there is a great incentive to accuse people of that error but you shouldn't.

                We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                by delver rootnose on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 07:38:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

              •  Yep, the uprate came. (0+ / 0-)

                Not going to add a downvote not because it's so undeserved but because I find DH so repugnant as a person that I recuse myself from rating any of his posts due to lack of objectivity... But that post should be hidden.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 07:56:01 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Boy you can just.... (7+ / 0-)

                  ....feel the love and kindness radiating from you.

                  And I bet if anyone called someone at this site repugnant that you liked you would HR it.

                  Real classy.

                  We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                  by delver rootnose on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 08:00:22 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Hey338Too

                    you may test that theory at your convenience; I'm sure you could find an example, no wait you couldn't.

                    Repugnant means distasteful, or alternately, incompatible. One could hardly dispute the latter and the former describes personal emotional response only.

                    I didn't call him any names or say anything about his character.

                    HR that yourself if you think that's so unacceptable.

                    "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                    by raptavio on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 08:17:24 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Well saying... (4+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      TheMomCat, DeadHead, poligirl, Kombema

                      ..he is ...

                      Not going to add a downvote not because it's so undeserved but because I find DH so repugnant as a person
                      Is far different that saying he is repugnant to me.  Or his comments are repugnant to me.  I think you know the difference.

                      We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                      by delver rootnose on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 08:26:37 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                        it's accurate. Regardless of what he's doing at the moment, inoffensive or not, that's how I regard him.

                        He knows it, too; this is principally why he tries to harangue me almost daily.

                        He'll probably have a few choice things to say when he sees this thread, too.

                        "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                        by raptavio on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 08:44:00 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Well it is rather.... (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          raptavio, poligirl, Kombema

                          ...pathetic that we are arguing about it in a two day old diary probably because we saw the same hidden comment of deadhead in the hidden valley.

                          I need to find other things to do than be an unpaid net nanny at a blog that seems to be shifting to the right each day.

                          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                          by delver rootnose on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 09:06:25 AM PST

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Well (0+ / 0-)

                            you're right about the first paragraph.

                            And as to the second, I hope you're not -- about the DKos thing. Me, I'm trapped in a hotel room late at night when the only thing open is a 7 eleven and it's not safe to leave the neighborhood, so... nothing better to do.

                            "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                            by raptavio on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 09:09:16 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you have an... (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, Kombema

                            ...iPad I would suggest the Simpsons tapped out or clan wars you can waste a lot of time there.

                            We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                            by delver rootnose on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 09:40:40 AM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Nothing better to do? (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            poligirl, Kombema

                            Thanks for confirming that you are, in fact, "haranguing" ME over a comment that wasn't even directed towards you, has been HR'd for the stupidest of reasons, and by at least one person who holds a grudge against me, all because you're bored.




                            Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

                            by DeadHead on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 12:41:02 PM PST

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  you won't get anywhere with raptavio here... (4+ / 0-)

                        he honestly thinks his shit don't stink.

                        and this is, as you've deduced, a witchhunt for DeadHead. been going on for a while now, but since kos's lovely diary the other day, it's ratcheted up and the tar and feathers folks have grown a *lot* bolder.

                        "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                        by poligirl on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 05:08:31 PM PST

                        [ Parent ]

                •  Yes, you find me "repugnant as a person." (4+ / 0-)

                  Because I have the nerve to point out your hypocrisy and your blog-nannying antics that make you as much a part of the problem as those you run around chastising, supposedly.

                  Yet I have never characterized you in a similar manner. At most, I've described your behavior in a given situation.

                  In fact, I don't think I've ever even said anything to you that's been hidden.

                  Yet you have described me as "repugnant," and in past days, as a "truly bad person."

                  Based on blog comments that point out your inconsistencies, ffs.

                  Wow.




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 01:35:27 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Oh, okay. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                TheMomCat, poligirl, Kombema

                He can call me "dumber than a bag of rocks" elsewhere, but you can stretch my comment into an accusation of shilling because I analogized his tactics to someone who's known for "accusing his opponent of his own sin."

                That makes complete sense.

                •  Well Deadhead.... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poligirl, DeadHead

                  ...as a genuine net nanny I have to point out that just like a traffic cop the complaint that 'you didn't stop that other guy going faster than me' doesn't hold much weight even though the injustice of it pisses you off.  However the same cop stopping you over and over is something else for what it is worth.

                  I usually agree with you but I do think you need to disengage more often and quicker.  Leaving an unfounded or otherwise crappy comment unanswered does not mean you loose.  I think the rest of us are smart nought to see crap when it is slung, and if they can't then does thier opinion really matter all that much.

                  Wrestling with pigs is pointless as you get dirty and the pig likes it.

                  Just my $0.02. Take it for what you will. And I have no illusion that I am consistent or unbiased.

                  We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

                  by delver rootnose on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 05:39:23 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  comparing someone to Karl Rove is not saying (4+ / 0-)

                someone is a shill ffs. good gawd, get a grip.

                Karl Rove is repugnant in many many different ways, and really, i wouldn't call him a shill really anyway.

                with your logic here basically comparing anyone here to anyone known in politics and campaigns is basically saying that's a shill accusation. get real. i know y'all hate DeadHead, but if i were you, this isn't any kind of hill to make a stand on.

                so off base. uprating to offset abuse.

                "Hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage; anger at the way things are, and courage to see that they do not remain the way they are." ~St Augustine "When it is dark enough, you can see the stars." ~Charles Beard

                by poligirl on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 05:03:05 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  I don't "hate" anyone and have (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sylv, Hey338Too

                  not interacted with "deadhead", or you for that matter.  I happened to see that comment and called it like I saw it, free from being neck-deep in the childish games.  That you think comparing someone to one of the ugliest and dirtiest political players to ever come down the pike is a-ok is funny in its own right, and even funnier after reading up on all the meta-shit that's gone on over the last few days.  

                  Listening to the NRA on school safety is like listening to the tobacco companies on cigarette safety. (h/t nightsweat)

                  by PsychoSavannah on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 08:16:28 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

            •  Uprated to counter bullshit HRs (5+ / 0-)

              Inland is essentially predicting that Ray will revert to his old ways, a trollish act based on his imagination and wishful thinking. That's making shit up.

              Is there a "Stand Your Ground" "defense" in blogging? Well you were GOING to act trollish, so I'm calling you out on it before you actually do it!

              "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

              by kovie on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 07:35:56 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  You're basically calling Ray a troll (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheMomCat

            by predicting that he's going to violate his promise to behave better, in a passive-aggressive "and if he does" way, which is itself trollish.

            You're basically baiting Ray, which is also trollish.

            Cut this shit out.

            "Reagan's dead, and he was a lousy president" -- Keith Olbermann 4/22/09

            by kovie on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 07:33:38 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Between you... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TheMomCat

            ...and deadhead I have yet to determine who has acted worse in ray's diaries.  But you both are solid in the muck you seem to enjoy rolling in.

            We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

            by delver rootnose on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 07:40:37 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

    •  I think there some confusion. This diary is not (8+ / 0-)

      an apology, but a reflection on things and a commitment to take to heart objections brought up by my critics, and advice provided by my supporters.

      Now, respectfully, do you really think it is fair to in addition to me making a commitment to makes these changes, that I should also police the entire comment thread?

      I just don't think that's fair.  I can't control what other people write.  But let me clarify something... I can guarantee you that I had never coordinate with any other user to engage in pack-like behavior, nor would I ever.

      All I can do is mind the way I communicate with others, but again, I don't think it is fair, nor feasible for me to police the comment thread.

      As you know, the community has mechanisms for doing that, one of which is the hide-rate system.

      •  Notice when others punish for disagreement. (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Patango, Sylv, Hey338Too, second gen
        Now, respectfully, do you really think it is fair to in addition to me making a commitment to makes these changes, that I should also police the entire comment thread?
        You might call it policing; I call it a "tut tut, come on now".

        Merely not reccing people who punish disagreement isn't enough.  

        Because somehow, they have the idea that such behavior is acceptable in your diaries.  If you disagree, then you should take the time to say so.  If you don't, well, don't be surprised if people say you condone it.

        The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

        by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 09:53:22 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Kos neither requested nor required (9+ / 0-)

          an apology. I feel that Ray's response in this diary was appropriate and correct. Diarists aren't responsible for the behavior of commenters in their diaries.

          As others have suggested in the comments here, I think this is a good time to take a step back and give Ray the opportunity to participate as he proposes in this diary.

          •  (....) (0+ / 0-)
            Diarists aren't responsible for the behavior of commenters in their diaries.
            Well, that's not true in Ray's past.  He actually was responsible, with his divisive, paranoid style.

            But the bottom line is, he's still responsible for his own behavior.  Diarists constantly weigh in on comments in their own diaries, and if Ray is too busy to tut tut someone for behavior that he says he disapproves of, well, he's not reformed.

            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

            by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:27:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  ... (5+ / 0-)

              As others have suggested in the comments here, I think this is a good time to take a step back and give Ray the opportunity to participate as he proposes in this diary.

              •  Well, as I said in the comments (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fcvaguy, duhban, Hey338Too, second gen
                Is Ray's intent good?  Dunno.  We'll see if he asks deadhead to stand down.

                The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

                by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:08:19 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  More victimhood, Inland? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poligirl

                  You're quite the aggrieved person, aren't you?

                  Zero self-awareness on your part. It's everyone else's fault.

                  And, another successful threadjack by you.




                  Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

                  by DeadHead on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:45:03 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Ray's trying to turn over a new leaf. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    fcvaguy

                    He might not approve of you messing up his diary with your usual false accusations.  You might not be welcome anymore.  

                    The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

                    by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:50:23 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  So you're a new supporter of Ray. Cool. (0+ / 0-)

                      Where's your tip/rec?

                      You're his spokesman, now, so I would think you would've at least shown your support by doing that, right?

                      I'm sure he's gonna prefer you, DailyKos Threadjacker Extraordinaire, someone who never tips or recs him, and who shows up only to shit in his diaries, over me, someone who's been supportive of a lot of his work for a long time, now.

                      Because you're his new helper.

                      Good to know.




                      Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us. ~ Garcia

                      by DeadHead on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 10:49:32 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  I guess (0+ / 0-)

                    some see any opportunity to bash their enemies as worth taking.

                    Because this diary is all about DeadHead and his "wrongness"

                    The internet is crazy. It is like people arguing about what kind of cheese to throw at a portrait, in order to destroy it completely

                    by GideonAB on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 11:59:08 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  it is really, really asking too much (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Ray Pensador

          to expect diarists to police comment threads.

          for one thing, they may not be around.  or even if around, distracted by reading and commenting elsewhere.

          if invidivual posters can't take care of themselves in any given thread, too bad.  they can call on higher ups if they really need help.

          it isn't as if a diary is a party where the host can see and hear virtually everything.

          be an adult and take care of yourself.

          •  Maybe it'll take some time for Ray to (0+ / 0-)

            make commenters understand that his diaries are not as they were.  But it certainly can be done.  Others manage.

            The dossier on my DKos activities during the Bush administration will be presented on February 3, 2014, with an appendix consisting an adjudication, dated "a long time ago", that I am Wrong.

            by Inland on Wed Feb 26, 2014 at 07:33:14 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  You do have the option of not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Sylv

        reccing the shittier comments in your diaries.

        Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand. -- Albert Einstein

        by Yasuragi on Thu Feb 27, 2014 at 05:29:45 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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