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View Diary: When May I Shoot a Student? (238 comments)

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    •  Sickening, isn't it? (7+ / 0-)

      Untreated depression is the number one cause for suicide.

      Untreated mental illness (including depression, bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and others) is the cause for the vast majority of suicides.
      MAP: Which States Have Cut Treatment For the Mentally Ill the Most?
      Between 2009 and 2012, states cut a total of $4.35 billion in public mental-health spending from their budgets.

      -cut-

      Since 2006, mental-illness rates in some county jails have increased by another 50 percent.

      -cut-

      In 1955, there was one psychiatric bed for every 300 Americans. In 2010, there was one psychiatric bed for every 7,100 Americans—the same ratio as in 1850.

      May our grandchildren forgive us for not helping those that truly need it.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 06:55:42 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  How exactly does putting guns in their hands... (26+ / 0-)

        "Help" them?

        "Suffering depression? Ask your doctor if guns are right for you"…

        Baby, where I come from...

        by ThatSinger on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 07:50:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Disingenuous. If we don't help them we've (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ER Doc

          already put "a gun in their hands".

          Think about it.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 07:57:33 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Talk about "disingenuous"… (20+ / 0-)

            Who amongst us advocates not helping those suffering from depression? And how does allowing students to carry concealed handguns on campus deal with depression?

            Your implication that those of us who have a problem with this new law don't give a shit about people suffering from depression is the "disingenuous" part….

            Some of us can walk and chew gum at the same time…

            Baby, where I come from...

            by ThatSinger on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 08:06:56 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well, since Red States are the ones most likely to (8+ / 0-)

              be cutting or eliminating mental health services and they're the ones most likely to be expanding access to guns (and the ones least likely to mandate sharing any mental health warnings that would put someone on the list used for background checks), well, I submit that it really is the gun advocates in general who are advocating not helping those suffering from depression while simultaneously making it easier for them to commit suicide using guns.

              That's a generality, but I'll bet I can find more support for that case than the opposite.

              •  Try again. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kasoru, k9disc, hmi

                Mental health funding gets the chop; New York, Calif. and Illinois account for staggering $1.2 billion in cuts

                Three of the Bluest States account for the largest cuts to mental health services in the Nation.

                Three large states — California, New York and Illinois — collectively accounted for a staggering $1.2 billion in mental health budget cuts since the 2009 fiscal year, according to the report.
                The numbers speak for themselves.  Today we have the same level of patient beds as we did in 1850!  The defunding of mental health services has been ongoing for the past 20+ yrs!  Ask me, I know it firsthand! And BTW, I live in the "blue" State of New York!

                It's not a "red" vs "blue" problem.  We all suffer when we don't focus on those that need it the most.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 06:46:35 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  So you're saying they're cutting mental health (0+ / 0-)

                  resources and funneling the money into gun control?

                  Seriously?

                  Sorry, it appears you're attempting to divert this discussion away from guns... again...

                  Baby, where I come from...

                  by ThatSinger on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 12:46:03 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Maybe this will help you see the picture better. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Kasoru, k9disc

                Red vs. Blue:

                http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/...

                States with the biggest increases in suicide:

                http://www.theatlanticcities.com/...

                Rhode Island - 69.1% increase
                Hawaii - 61.2% increase
                Vermont - 57.9% increase
                Oregon - 49.3% increase

                You probably saw the headlines late last week: suicides among middle-aged Americans appear to have surged over the past decade. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention recently found the suicide rate for people aged 35 to 64 jumped 28 percent between 1999 and 2010, a troubling development by any measure. This means more Americans now die of suicide than of car accidents.

                -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                by gerrilea on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 07:08:45 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  You and those like you that claim a gun (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kasoru, hmi

              made someone commit suicide.  And falsely claim that gun control will reduce suicides in this nation.  

              It didn't work in 33 OTHER Nations that tried it!  Suicides have gone up over 30% in the past 10 yrs.  What have you done to make mental health services available to all?

              Show me what petitions you've signed, what letters to the editor you've written, what letters you've written to any Congress Critter or what groups your a member of that pushes to save the lives of over 40,000 Americans each year that die from suicide?

              You sir, are the member of 2 groups and both of them are to push gun control.

              I find your faux morality appalling.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 06:31:09 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Less guns makes it harder to commit suicide. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ThatSinger

                That, basically, is the argument.  

                Guns are too easy.

              •  I find your false equivalence laughable... (0+ / 0-)

                YOU are the one who interjected "depression" and "suicide" into a discussion about allowing students to carry concealed firearms on a college campus, not me...

                Your apparent assertion that opposition to allowing students to carry concealed firearms on campus (and into classrooms) somehow equates to apathy about depression and suicide is both baffling and bizarre... it does however fit right into the gun fanciers' playbook of "distract the conversation from guns at all cost... even your own credibility"... thanks for illustrating that so clearly...

                Baby, where I come from...

                by ThatSinger on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 12:43:19 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hon, review how this subthread started. (0+ / 0-)
                  Well mostly just suicides. Oh well. (21+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                      i saw an old tree today, Glen The Plumber, Iberian, Mogolori, Betty Pinson, crystal eyes, Kathy Scheidel, Penny GC, Debby, ColoTim, Nailbanger, Miggles, Chas 981, PsychoSavannah, burlydee, gramofsam1, blueoasis, ranger995, realalaskan, WakeUpNeo, murrayewv

                  Link (warning PDF)

                  This better be good. Because it is not going away.

                  by DerAmi on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 09:25:17 AM EST

                  [ Parent | Reply to This ]

                  Facts are: I didn't "interject" anything that hadn't already been brought up by another poster.

                  Facts are: Focusing on the object or method used for suicide will NOT reduce the chances someone so lost from actually killing themselves.

                  Don't like actual facts, tell your buddies not to bring up the subject...

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 12:51:06 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  You did interject depression... (0+ / 0-)

                    and you did make the bullshit false assertion that merely discussing this subject (concealed carry on college campuses) is somehow tantamount to complete apathy about depression...

                    Yes, that's all on you...

                    Baby, where I come from...

                    by ThatSinger on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 12:58:08 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  What I did say and your characterizations are (0+ / 0-)

                      intentionally false.

                      If you don't help those that need it, I could give a flying rats ass what you ban/restrict or make magically disappear...it won't stop people from being violent, being suicidal AND acting upon it.

                      How many people that are actually happy commit suicide?

                      Your red-herring is revealed.

                      Obviously depression and suicide go together.  So does undiagnosed and untreated mental illness...

                      But instead of putting your money where your mouth is, you'll keep attacking me for pushing reality here.

                      Guns, whether or not they are allowed on campuses, WILL NOT CHANGE human behaviors.

                      Let's address that, together?  Or is the fear porn you're pushing too overwhelming?

                      Guns = Evil.
                      Guns on Campus = more Evil.
                      Guns on Campus = more dead people
                      !

                      As stated previously, we already have 6 States that have it.  Show me if there has been more or less crimes.  Are the colleges in those States running with the blood of innocents?

                      If not, then what are they doing right?

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 01:29:52 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                  •  Funny... you never got around to answering this: (0+ / 0-)
                    Who amongst us advocates not helping those suffering from depression?
                    hon...

                    Baby, where I come from...

                    by ThatSinger on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 01:01:01 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  ROFL...you've not provided any evidence (0+ / 0-)

                      that you actually support helping those that need it.

                      You have said a "zillion" times you want gun control.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 01:15:28 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

              •  Strawman... (0+ / 0-)

                nobody, and I mean nobody I've seen has suggested that a gun "made someone commit suicide"...

                Please provide a link where ANYONE has made such a claim, ever...

                What a gun does do is FACILITATE suicide, making it far easier, effective and instantaneous than most other methods... what a gun DOESN'T allow for is second thoughts and a change of heart... once the trigger is pulled, that's it, unlike say, downing a handful of prescription drugs which take enough time for someone who's changed their mind to seek emergency medical attention...

                But really, it's clear your primary intent here is to divert this discussion away from guns... I'd be happy to read a diary you've written on the subject of suicide and depression if you've got one handy though...

                Baby, where I come from...

                by ThatSinger on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 12:55:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Hey honey...here...read this one I wrote over (0+ / 0-)

                  a year ago!

                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  The topic of depression, despair and suicide were discussed.

                  Get reading.

                  :)

                  My "intent" has always been to help as many people as possible.  To move our nation forward into a world where Americans don't feel the need to own weapons BUT still retain the right to do so if they wish.

                  And doing so whereby we keep control of the levers of our gov't.

                  I have other "intents" as well...I do share them from time to time here.  Like demanding accountability from our "s"elected officials.  Demanding they follow the supreme law of the land.  Stopping the racist drug war that has generationally destroyed this nation and turned our urban centers into war zones.  

                  Hey...I'll stop now...if you read the linked diary...I do go through those "intents" pretty thoroughly.

                  Have fun.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 01:59:00 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

              •  As someone who's been suicidal frequently (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                BeninSC

                in the past, I'd just like to say that I'd probably be dead right now if I had access to a firearm back then.

                Many other methods of suicide require preparation. Preparation gives you time to think, time to change your mind. Having a gun doesn't give you that time to think. You can make the decision quite impulsively and be done with it a minute later. Not to mention its instant and pretty much guaranteed. I have quite a few scars on my thighs from times I attempted to cut my femoral artery and failed. I nearly caused an electrical fire after damaging a light fixture trying to hang myself.

                Guns don't make people kill themselves, or necessarily 'inspire' them to kill themselves, but they make it possible in a way almost no other method does. I live in California. If I wanted to go out and get a gun to commit suicide, I'd be sitting on my ass for ten days waiting. I can't speak for everybody who's ever been suicidal, but I doubt I'd still want to kill myself after that. I rarely had the desire to kill myself for more than a few minutes before I managed to calm down and think my way through it.

                Though its very hard to restrict access to firearms for people who are depressed. Compiling a 'list' of mentally 'ill' people would both be difficult, a severe limitation of rights, and an unpleasant invasion of privacy. Not to mention that there are some things listed as mental illnesses (Like, say, Gender Dysphoria) that could bar somebody from purchasing a firearm despite the fact that it has absolutely zero effect on whether or not it would be safe for them to own one.

                At least as far as suicide goes (Not even brushing on the hundreds of other gun related issues), I am of a mind to agree that firearms do contribute to suicide, though only because of ease of access and the instant, guaranteed nature of shooting oneself. But at the same time, there's no easy way to prevent this. Waiting periods are quite effective, but only for somebody who goes out and buys a gun to commit suicide, it would have no effect on somebody who already has access to a firearm. I have to agree with another opinion I saw earlier (Though its the only opinion this person put forth that I agree with) that an increase in mental health funding and increasing the ease of access to therapy and mental health programs will do a lot for the suicide rate, far more than limiting gun purchases in some way or another. Guns help suicide, but they don't cause it. Increasing the collective mental health of America would make the issue of guns and suicide a much smaller one, though thats still only a tiny portion of the gun debate.

                Just my two cents. My very, very long and unnecessary two cents.

                •  thanks fo the post... (0+ / 0-)

                  It was thoughtful, and personal, and perhaps took more than a bit of courage.

                  I read somewhere, (it may have been in the book "The Hazards of Being Male,") that women attempt suicide at something like four times the rate that men do.  Men, however, (at least, at the time the book came out,) SUCCEED at suicide at something like four times the rate that women do.

                  The reason is obvious.  Suicide is a cry for help.  Women chose methods that would allow someone to hear their cry for help, and allow for the possibility of help arriving.

                  For a long time in our society, women were socialized to believe that succeeding wasn't a valuable feminine trait, so it was okay for them to fail at suicide, and still be feminine.

                  For many men, it used to be the opposite.  To be masculine means that one is not supposed to fail, that one has to be successful at whatever one decides to do.  In trying to keep up with our masculine socialization, men have learned that it's not okay to fail, even when it comes to suicide.  

                  That's why, when it comes to suicide for men, guns, are the instrument of choice.  Hard to fail with a gun.

                  All that changes if we change the socialization process for men, as well as the expectations that come along with it.  All that changes if the society promotes assertive behavior, as compared to either passive or aggressive behavior.  You stop violence when people learn to have respect for both themself and others.

                  Even though guns, and violence, are real problems, they are still nothing more than symptoms of a deeper cultural socialization problem.  Isn't it time we stopped throwing time, money and energy at the symptoms of a cultural problem, and got to the roots of it.

        •  Well, TS, it doesn't make much difference (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ThatSinger, kcc

          if it's a gun, or a car, or a swimming pool, or food - they're all equally deadly. I know this because I've been told that by so many people here on DKos.

          So, yeah, the guns? Not the issue.

          Politics is about the improvement of people's lives. - Paul Wellstone

          by occams hatchet on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 11:34:08 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

    •  Thanks for the link. (0+ / 0-)

      I was wondering whether anybody had collected data on these kinds of comparisons.

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