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View Diary: Obama: 'There will be costs' if Russia violates Ukrainian sovereignty (286 comments)

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  •  Thanks otlc (5+ / 0-)

    you type fast. spot on. i was thinking all afternoon that this was going to happen. it did.

    A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

    by onionjim on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 02:46:31 PM PST

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    •  Well, the warmongers are already flocking (6+ / 0-)

      Or should I say "circling like buzzards"?

      Food processed to be nothing more than simple starches with two dozen flavorings and stabilizers added to make it appear to be food isn't "food". It's "feed" -- what you give to livestock to fatten them up for slaughter.

      by ontheleftcoast on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 02:55:28 PM PST

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      •  rubs hands together... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        ontheleftcoast, jilikins

        this could be a good one.

        A true craftsman will meticulously construct the apparatus of his own demise.

        by onionjim on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 02:58:11 PM PST

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      •  Foolish statement. Putin is a classic bully and (13+ / 0-)

        aggressor. The knee jerk preference of some on DailyKos for total pacifism is counter productive, as a Gandhist effort to resisr an anti-Democratic aggressor like Putin would be.

        •  Yeah, let's get behind the fascist supported (6+ / 0-)

          Ukranian opposition in the name of democracy. This is pretty much a pig fight. Do you really feel it necessary to take a side?
          .

          The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

          by Wolf10 on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 03:33:00 PM PST

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          •  Ya (9+ / 0-)

            the Russians are definitely trying to label this revolution as a fascist revolution. But, by all accounts, its anything but. Parliament seems to be still clearly in charge in forming a new government and it voted 328-0 to impeach Yanukovich, including his own party members.

            Here's a good article on the subject of whether or not its a fascist revolution:

            http://www.slate.com/...

            KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

            by fcvaguy on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 03:49:41 PM PST

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            •  Still, no dog worth dying for in this fight (3+ / 0-)

              unless of course you actually live there and we don't.  Without a clear class perspective kleptocrats, plutocrats and olligarchs of one stripe or another will remain incharge while the common folk compete for scraps and occasionally slaughter each other in the name of identity politics.

              The frog jumped/ into the old pond/ plop! (Basho)

              by Wolf10 on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 04:07:29 PM PST

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            •  Right Sector (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Jim P, Alhambra
              the Russians are definitely trying to label this revolution as a fascist revolution. But, by all accounts, its anything but. Parliament seems to be still clearly in charge in forming a new government and it voted 328-0 to impeach Yanukovich, including his own party members
              Hey now.  It bears repeating just what Wolf10 actually said:
              Yeah, let's get behind the fascist supported
              Ukranian opposition in the name of democracy. This is pretty much a pig fight. Do you really feel it necessary to take a side?
              The article that you link to tries to put concerns about the new government solely onto Svoboda, which as it points out glorifies Nazi collaborator cum Ukranian Nationalist Stepan Bandera. Svoboda is not jewel, having ties to far right European nationalists.
              The Svoboda party also has excellent ties to Europe, but they are different from the ones that Klischko might prefer. It is allied with France's right-wing Front National and with the Italian neo-fascist group Fiamma Tricolore. But when it comes to the oppression of homosexuality, representative Myroshnychenko is very close to Russian President Vladimir Putin, even if he does all he can to counter Moscow's influence in his country.
              The thing is that when it comes to the actual making of the revolution, Svoboda are moderates.  When neo-fascist parties marched throughout Europe in support of the "revolution" last Saturday, it wasn't Svoboda they were heiling. It was Right Sector, the militants who abjured political participation in favor of political violence to overthrow a democratically elected government. Whatever Yanukovych's flaws, he was brought to power through a democratic election, and removed from it by armed thugs that removed him from it.

              When the "revolution" seized government buildings it was Right Sector at the front, and they had been stockpiling weapons since at least the start of the year. When Western foreign ministers managed to secure a peace agreement, it was Right Sector that refused to abide by it. Now they are in government, and threatening collective punishment on the families of police officers associated with the old regime.  

              Yanukovych may have been a cad, but there was a way to remove him using the institutional means provided in a democracy.  The "revolution" decided that was to much trouble. Now that the precedent has been set that government can be seized by armed men with guns, does anyone really believe that a democratic election and the rule of law are in the offing for Ukraine in the near future?  There are no heroes here, only dumb men with guns. And it is their stupidity which lead others to their graves. Now.... I believe.... is a bad time to get in line.

              http://www.economicpopulist.org

              by ManfromMiddletown on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 05:17:30 PM PST

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              •  Your last paragraph (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tony Situ, erichiro, fcvaguy

                I hate to be pedantic, but that's exactly what the Rada did. Yanukovich was impeached by a unanimous vote -- which took place weeks after he began issuing orders for riot police to use force against peaceful demonstrators, journalists, and medics.

                Yes, there was undoubtedly a radical element on the Maidan. But it's hard to blame people for fighting back. It is up to the interim government to ensure the rule of law still applies in Ukraine, and there have been positive signs -- the lack of looting, for instance, and the largely peaceful disbanding of riot police groups loyal to the old regime.

                Pragmatic progressive. Oregonian, Cascadian, and American. Keeper of the DKE glossary.

                by SaoMagnifico on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 05:31:13 PM PST

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                •  Well (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  dallasdunlap

                  if we are going to be pedantic, I'd have to point out that having thousands of armed and angry protestors in the streets shouting for blood, and having already taken several government buildings, is hardly a fair context for a vote.   From some of the stories that I've heard, Right Sector was actually occupying the the building at the time of the vote.

                  For all those who praise the protestors, I'd point out that the American equivalent of what happened in Ukraine would be armed members of the Tea Party taking to the streets, demanding that Obama be removed from office.  After months of protesting, police attempt to remove then, making them only angrier.  Finally, they start making armed occupations of government buildings.  When things begin to spin out of control, the European foreign ministers come to arrange a deal were Obama will accept new elections if only the Tea Party will leave the government buildings.  The Republican party signs off on the deal, but the Tea Party just won't have it and announces that the "revolution" is on.  Finally, Congress agrees to impeach President Obama, and announces that he's a wanted man.

                  I'd wager that you would find that objectionable. Why is it ok to do the same in Ukraine?

                  http://www.economicpopulist.org

                  by ManfromMiddletown on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 08:04:26 PM PST

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                  •  Yanukovych Was Corrupt (0+ / 0-)

                    Yanukovych was totally corrupt, a Russian puppet, and his election was a sham.  The US equivalent here would not be the tea party overthrowing the liberal president; rather, it would be the progressives overthrowing some sham Koch brothers/teagbagger president.

                    "Art is a lie that makes you realize the truth." - Picasso

                    by she the technocrat on Sun Mar 02, 2014 at 06:46:28 PM PST

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        •  Agreed (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fcvaguy, Subterranean, jilikins, Tony Situ

          There's obviously nothing the United States can do here, but it would be even more pathetic than making a toothless speech to just remain silent while Russia violates a European state's sovereignty.

          Pragmatic progressive. Oregonian, Cascadian, and American. Keeper of the DKE glossary.

          by SaoMagnifico on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 03:35:51 PM PST

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        •  it's not about total pacifism, it's about (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          bananapouch1, jilikins

          balanced reality.

          we want to softly support democratic movements,
          but, if we can't escalate out of that, our
          influence is twitter, internet and
          training and Tor.

          Look in Bosnia, I advocated force because people
          were dying and it was on the edge of NATO.

          Here, it's behind Russian defense lines and we
          need russia to balance china.  

          It's just a pity, i'd keep encouraging a democratic ukraine
          and a democratic russia but, force is just not on the table.

        •  Exactly. Pacifism is nonsense. (6+ / 0-)

          Maybe if everyone in the world was a pacifist, it would work. But Putin is a dictator who is hell bent on reestablishing something resembling the Soviet Union, and he should be called out for it, period. Ukraine is fighting for democracy and for closer relations to Europe and the West.

          We all saw what Russia did in the 19th century, what they did in 1918-20 (Warsaw Miracle), 1939-40 (Ribbentrop-Molotov), 1945 and later (Iron Curtain and Warsaw Pact). Putin is trying to carry out another wave like that.

          •  In this case we can't intervene though (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            jilikins, fcvaguy, Tony Situ

            not in that fashion. We can call them out diplomatically, possibly threaten their G8 status but no more

            •  I'm not calling for intervention. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              fcvaguy

              I am though advocating calling out Russia's lies, and taking a firm stand against the lawlessness. Let Ukraine know that they have every right to reenter and take control of their sovereign territory.

              •  Be realistic (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                fcvaguy

                There's a reason Ukraine hasn't fired on the Russians as they have occupied Crimea. Kyiv would rather let Crimea go, have its military personnel there peaceable returned, and carry on with its plans for early elections than go toe-to-toe with a great power that could and would brutally subjugate it.

                Pragmatic progressive. Oregonian, Cascadian, and American. Keeper of the DKE glossary.

                by SaoMagnifico on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 04:49:15 PM PST

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                •  That seems right. I hope it happens. Things like (0+ / 0-)

                  this require a steady hand and thoughtful action.  We know Putin isn't capable of that, so it's the new gov and the rest of the world that must.

                  202-224-3121 to Congress in D.C. USE it! You can tell how big a person is by what it takes to discourage them. "We're not perfect, but they're nuts."--Barney Frank 01/02/2012

                  by cany on Sat Mar 01, 2014 at 11:06:08 AM PST

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        •  Total pacifism? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Alhambra

          I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 05:34:29 PM PST

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        •  We have no moral authority to demand anything (5+ / 0-)

          We no longer have the moral authority to demand anything

          We invaded IRAQ for no reason in violation of international law

          We created Guantanamo in violation of international law

          We drop bombs from drones on INNOCENT civillians everyday in violation of international law

          We sent troops into Pakistan in violation of international law

          We killed an American Citizen in Yemen in a strike in violation of international law

          Pacifism is different than saying it's time for America to step back and let those in the international community that still have moral authority to be the ones to make the demands.

          As bad as Putin is he can simply point at America and say go glean up your own backyard before you point your finger at me. That is one of the real travesties of The Bush Doctrine. When we get on the international soap box the dictators of the world get a good laugh out of our MINDBOGGLING HYPOCRISY and literally brush the criticsm aside like it was lint on their suits.

          Until we are willing to do the right thing and lead by example, it does more harm than good when we act like we still have the moral high ground.

          WE DON'T

        •  Seriously? Have you looked at a map of the area? (0+ / 0-)

          Look at the location of Crimea.
             Ukraine was part of Russia for many years. Crimea was made part of Ukraine during the rule of the Communist dictator Nikita Khruschev in the 1950s. The majority of Crimeans are of Russian origin. Russia has a major naval base at Sebastopol in Crimea.
             The Russians are apparently taking measures, involving their armed forces, to prevent Crimea from falling under the control of the new Ukrainian government headquartered in Kiev.
              Keep in mind that one of the first moves of the new government was to drop Russian as one of Ukraine's official languages.
              From Russia's POV, an elected government with close ties to Russia has been overthrown by an anti-Russian mob with dubious popular support. The safety of Russian citizens and ethnic Russian-Ukrainians is in question. The national security of Russia itself is threatened by possible loss of its basing rights.
             I would venture to say that even if Putin were a liberal Democrat, he would feel moved to protect Russian interests in Crimea.

      •  the PNAC wants another war (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        jilikins, oldhippie

        no doubt.

      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)


        You don't have no money?
        He'll get you some
        You don't have no car?
        He'll get you one
        You don't have no self-respect,
        you feel like an insect
        Well don't you worry buddy,
        'cause here he comes
        Through the ghettos and the barrio
        and the bowery and the slum
        A shadow is cast wherever he stands
        Stacks of green paper in his
        red right hand

        I tried to go online to find a similar bear head...but when I searched “Big Bear Head” it gave me a San Diego craigslist ad entitled “Big Bear needs some quick head now” and then I just decided to never go on the internet again.--Jenny Lawson

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Feb 28, 2014 at 05:25:13 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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