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View Diary: Why did Obama let this happen, and other questions on Ukraine (313 comments)

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  •  it's the wrong way around (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    gzodik, LeftistSkeptic, buffie

    Krushchev engaged in a provocation by placing offensive nuclear weapons in Cuba, and JFK responded to that threat.

    In this case, it was the US who was engaged in provocation by backing a regime change in a country bordering Russia, in order to draw that country into the EU orbit. Russia is responding to that--and the threat of losing its warm-water port.

    Putin's response to that provocation threatens to escalate tensions and is not constructive. But there was no way they were not going to respond to what the EU and US did in Ukraine.

    If a far-off country destabilized Cuba and tried to pull it into their orbit, we would be at war already. Russia's response has been mild by comparison with what we would do in the same situation.

    "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

    by limpidglass on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 10:02:33 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Which changes what, exactly? (0+ / 0-)

      Would Krushchev have made the same calculation with Nixon in the White House?

      Maybe. Maybe not.
      After the lone summit between the two, in Vienna:

      Kennedy’s aides convinced the press at the time that behind closed doors the president was performing well, but American diplomats in attendance, including the ambassador to the Soviet Union, later said they were shocked that Kennedy had taken so much abuse. Paul Nitze, the assistant secretary of defense, said the meeting was “just a disaster.” Khrushchev’s aide, after the first day, said the American president seemed “very inexperienced, even immature.” Khrushchev agreed, noting that the youthful Kennedy was “too intelligent and too weak.” The Soviet leader left Vienna elated — and with a very low opinion of the leader of the free world.
      http://www.nytimes.com/...

      LG: You know what? You got spunk. MR: Well, Yes... LG: I hate spunk!

      by dinotrac on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 10:13:02 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  I disagree that the US had any major role in (0+ / 0-)

      the conflict between the two sides in the Ukraine.  I'm sure we attempted to influence the pro-Western leaders, but the movements they led were a reflection of various segments of Ukrainian society, not something the US conjured up out of nothing by throwing around money and propaganda.  

      And what the US State Department wanted was just one of many competing pressures those leaders were trying to balance, and less important than what their fellow Ukrainians wanted.

      If the US can magically conjure up thousands of people in the streets of Kiev, then Russia should be able to have even more influence since they're much closer geographically and have a significant percentage of the people in the Ukraine identifying as Russian.  

      Yet Russia had to resort to military force to achieve its aims. The people living in that country are not puppets dangling from either American or Russian strings.  

    •  Offensive Provocation (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Meteor Blades

      Kruchev's nukes in Cuba were in response to the US putting nuke missiles in Italy and Turkey, and the US' failed invasion in the Bay of Pigs. But the US didn't respond by invading East Germany to defend our military bases in West Germany.

      Putin's military invasion of Crimea constitutes more than just "some response". Indeed the US backing Ukraine regime change was a proportionate response to the Russian backed regime and its actions.

      "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

      by DocGonzo on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 10:54:47 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Cuba's history, even under Castro, did not... (0+ / 0-)

      ...begin in 1962. The U.S., after all, took a few actions in Cuba before Khrushchev made his moves. Moreover, he made moves in Germany before then, too, reminding the USSR through a subordinate's speech about America's hugely larger nuclear arsenal and building up conventional forces in Europe.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 11:16:51 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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