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View Diary: With Friends Like This... (288 comments)

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  •  Have you read anything about this issue? (1+ / 0-)
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    There are many respected journalists and commentators who have written about the IMF angle and have come to similar conclusions.

    Should I get a few (from mainstream sources) and list them for you?

    Regardless, I clearly stated in the diary that that was my conclusion and that others didn't need to agree with it.  You are free to hide your head in the sand if you want, but you can't expect other thinking people to do the same.

    •  Always fascinating (9+ / 0-)

      how many variants of "Wake up, sheeple!" you can come up with.

      If the Boston Globe opinion article is one of such sources, it doesn't support your conclusion. But please do. I always believe it's incumbent upon the one making these sorts of claims to provide supporting evidence.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 02:16:54 PM PST

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    •  Reading your provided links (6+ / 0-)

      they support tangential points from which you seem to have extrapolated a conspiracy based on your imagination.

      "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

      by raptavio on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:09:11 PM PST

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      •  Interesting because you have provided no links (1+ / 0-)
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        to proof the conspiracy theory you are pushing about the US not doing these things.

        •  For you to call the absence of a conspiracy (5+ / 0-)

          theory to be itself a conspiracy theory is the most absurd form of sophistry imaginable -- akin to proclaiming atheism to be a religion.

          I seriously doubt even your most fervent supporters will back you on that.

          "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

          by raptavio on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:57:57 PM PST

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          •  Insisting that something that is true or may be (1+ / 0-)
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            true is a conspiracy is in itself a conspiracy theory.

            I shared an opinion stating that the US is engaging in a destabilization campaign in Ukraine, and I've shared links to opinion pieces of people who share that opinion.

            I believe there is evidence, like the leaked call I included here, to back up my assertion.

            You are of course free to reject all that and say you don't agree with it.  But when you cross into claiming that you know those things are a conspiracy theory without providing any proof, then yes, I call that the worst kind of conspiracy theory.

            Let's try this: Can you prove that your theory about the US not being involved in a destabilization campaign is true?

            •  Congratulations. (6+ / 0-)

              You've provided a canonincal example of the fallacy known s argumentem ad ignorantiam. You do not get to shift the burden of proof by claiming that is on the onus on a doubter to disprove your assertion.

              And no, I don't reject your links -- rather, I recognize that your links put forth a related but very different claim from the one you are putting forth. They claim the US among other nations is involved in influencing Ukraine's politics. They claim the IMF will demand austerity in exchange for financial aid to the nation. They do not claim the US is influencing Ukraine's politics for the purpose of forcing them to accede to the IMF's demands. That claim is yours, and yours alone.

              And I think you realize this, as your uncharacteristically desperate effort to shift the burden of proof away from yourself shows.

              "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

              by raptavio on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:44:31 PM PST

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              •  canonincal? (2+ / 0-)
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                duhban, mahakali overdrive

                Hm. Silly typos. I don't even drink so I can't blame the whisky.

                "Much of movement conservatism is a con and the base is the marks." -- Chris Hayes

                by raptavio on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 06:48:09 PM PST

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              •  This is what I wrote in the diary: (1+ / 0-)
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                This comment focuses only on one aspect of the crisis, and that is U.S. and Western meddling in the internal affairs of Ukraine with what I've (and many other commentators) have determined to be a not-so-covert attempt at isolating (and encircling) Russia on the one hand, and delivering Ukraine into the welcoming arms of the Neo-liberal (predatory) embraces of the World Bank and the IMF.

                Now, I don't expect everybody to agree with that characterization, and that's fine--people can agree to disagree when it comes to such complicated geopolitical dynamics.

                But be that as it may, I will find it hard to believe that at this point anybody could argue that the U.S. and Western partners did not play a role in the crisis, both covertly and overtly.

                It's my opinion; I reached that opinion based on many different sources of information.  You don't have to agree, as I plainly stated.

                Now as to your theory: Do you have any prove that can show convincingly that the US wasn't engaging in a destabilization campaign in Ukraine?

                If you have prove to back up your theory I'll be glad to examine it.  If it is convincing I'll be glad to change my opinion.

        •  usually people provide links to (5+ / 0-)

          support their ascertations not require them to be disproved.

          This space for lease

          by Drewid on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 05:59:51 PM PST

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          •  A red-herring to distract.. public infomation (2+ / 0-)
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            roseeriter, Ray Pensador

            has reported on for months in our news media.

            Google would by raptivio's friend.

            Ray was not obligated to prove anything or argue over sources.  He made that clear in his diary.

            -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

            by gerrilea on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 03:14:25 AM PST

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        •  If that's the case (0+ / 0-)

          I'd like you to please prove that Robot Zombie Jesus wasn't the other gunman on the grassy knoll.

          Oh yeah and btw Lincoln? That Me in about 30 years.


          Der Weg ist das Ziel

          by duhban on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:07:24 PM PST

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          •  You mean there was (2+ / 0-)
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            gerrilea, Ray Pensador

            more than one gunman on the grassy knoll? Interesting.

            Nothing to add to the diary I assume?

            •  you mean other than I found the diarist's (0+ / 0-)

              assertion that we should believe things without any evidence presented silly at best? Sure I find the isolationist tone of the diary ignorant of history and the reality that isolationism was a failed policy even before the changes of the last 20 years.

              That enough? Because I'm really just getting warmed up but seeing as how others have not only already said just about everything I could say about how off this diary is. They've said it better.

              Der Weg ist das Ziel

              by duhban on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 10:27:47 PM PST

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              •  Was it about Isolationism? (2+ / 0-)
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                gerrilea, Ray Pensador

                I get that part. He has asserted that we shouldn't be in this affair at all and I agree. Non-isolationism, if that's even a word. Doesn't mean you jump into every dust up the planet has to offer. From how I see it.... Putin is sick of the NATO creeping up unto his neighbors. With Bush crying about missile defense in countries that have no threat from Iranian missiles which don't exist in the first place to inviting former Soviet states into NATO when Russia was weak during the Clinton years to the attempt from Georgia to take 2 territories which use the Russian Ruble as their currency. It's pinned him geo-politically and maybe economically.

                This is a situation that Russia isn't going to back down. Do you see that yet? He took Crimea without a shot being fired and the Ukrainian soldiers are stuck staring out the fences of their base. Armed forces in that region have defected. He is waiting for a rational response. You push Russia further and they will take more.

                You also don't send members of your admin to talk shit on Sunday talk shows.

                I'd like to hear your rational response.... Probably asking for trouble though....

                •  the word was not used (0+ / 0-)

                  but yes it is isolationism that is being advocated. Arguing that a nation invading another nation is an 'internal issue' is passive aggressive isolationism, way of saying well we really shouldn't get involved.

                  I don't really give a flying fuck what Putin is sick of you don't get to invade other nations. And that is really all there is to say on that topic. And really? You want a rational response when yours seems based on a combination of fear and false equivalency? Tell you what you can insult my thought process when you're not not busy trying to sell me on one nation invading another because 'Putin haz sad'.

                  Appeasement has never worked and isolationism is as I has said a flawed and failed foreign policy. That doesn't mean I think we should or will go to war over the Ukraine but nor will I tolerate the excuse making for Putin because it gives some here to vent about history.

                  Der Weg ist das Ziel

                  by duhban on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:02:42 AM PST

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