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  •  I've read the Shock Doctrine (0+ / 0-)

    I'm not sure why people bring that up as though it's the be all, end all of foreign policy. It's not.

    I am certainly interested in having an honest debate about this. But first, we have to establish that both debaters are being honest.

    If you believe, as you state, that Russia has a right to do what it's doing in order to keep the peace "in their own backyard," (which I must remind you is not its own backyard, but a sovereign nation that has a right to defend itself), would you feel the same if, say, your analogy happened? Would you be okay with invading Canada?

    At the same time, are you okay with Canada invading us since we have nuclear weapons? We are, after all, in their backyard and, according to your logic, they have a right to do that.

    P.S. I am not a crackpot.

    by BoiseBlue on Mon Mar 03, 2014 at 07:09:01 PM PST

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    •  Maybe read Shock Doctrine again BB. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      gerrilea

      some weird hypocrisy going on here, I think. Your 'kindness' sounds more like sarcasm to me.

      "Life without emotions is like an engine without fuel."

      "It's said that the honest man has nothing to hide. Not true. The honest man has to hide himself, because honest men are the prime targets of those who lie."

      by roseeriter on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 12:36:24 AM PST

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    •  Recall in 1962 under Kennedy we did invade (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      roseeriter

      Cuba.  Okay...we failed but we did try, see "Bay of Pigs Fiasco".

      And those nukes were 90+ miles away.  Imagine if Cuba was landlocked to North & South Carolina.  We would have walked right in and seized them.  

      And aren't we talking about our invasion and muckraking for the past 20 yrs and now we're angry at the results the actual players in the region were forced to take?

      As for your theoretical, that was one of mine that I've used to elucidate this manufactured crisis by the NeoCons that have infiltrated our gov't and pushed their foreign policy agenda for the past 30 yrs.

      What if the Russians spent billions supporting the Hutaree Militia and sent in NGO's to "bring democracy"?  

      That's exactly what we did:

      CANVAS: The Belgrade US-Financed Training Group Behind the Carefully-Orchestrated Kiev Protests

      A copy of the pamphlet that was given out to opposition protestors in Kiev has been obtained. It is a word-for-word and picture-for-picture translation of the pamphlet used by US-financed Canvas organizers in the 2011 Cairo Tahrir Square protests that toppled Hosni Mubarak and opened the door to the US-backed Muslim Brotherhood.
      Imagine that the Hutaree trained and expanded their program into all major cities within the US and then started protesting by the millions, bringing our economy and society to a stand still.  Our gov't would deem them terrorists and summarily act to stop them.

      We've already seen their criminal actions against OWS.  Imagine OWS on steroids and 10 times bigger and then imagine the Hutaree getting control over our nuclear weapons.

      What do you think Canada would do?  Would the world condemn us for attacking "peaceful protesters"?

      What if a group of those "peaceful protesters" took over the UN building in NYC?

      As for your claim that you read Shock Doctrine, please read it again, you missed something.

      And I'd seriously suggest you read my link above on Enforcing American Hegemony.  It make take you a couple weeks to read and follow the extensive links that documents our Imperialism but read it you must.

      It ain't pretty and it's long overdue that we call the spade here, the spade.

      What You Didn't Know About The War


      "They don't hate us because of our freedoms, they hate us because everyday we are funding and committing crimes against humanity."

      And when you're done reading and re-educating yourself to the horrors we spread throughout the world...you'll know the debate here on DK and more specifically in Ray's dairies has been anything BUT honest.

      People so desperate to believe that we are the righteous liberators our propaganda has told us we are that they'll attack and deny any truths from being presented. They'll rationalize it all away not truly understanding that we've been had and lied to.

      This crisis is all about an American economic occupation that will last for generations.  Stripping the natural resources, the labor and soul of yet another nation to serve our corporate overlords through the World Bank and the IMF.

      No thank you.  We've all suffered enough.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 02:34:02 AM PST

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      •  I don't understand what this has to do (0+ / 0-)

        with Russia's actions. I am educated on the actions of the US. I understand that part.

        But I don't understand how any of our atrocities validate Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

        Also, I am not someone who believes we are righteous liberators, and I rarely participate in Ray's diaries. You made a lot of assumptions about me in that comment, but avoided the question that I asked in the beginning.

        P.S. I am not a crackpot.

        by BoiseBlue on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 07:03:42 AM PST

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        •  Hummm...I'm sorry that was not the intent... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          roseeriter, Ray Pensador

          I thought I was explaining the connection to the World Bank, the IMF, Shock Doctrine and Russian actions.

          The pamphlets are the smoking gun.

          This situation was our doing.  We created the entire mess through our destabilization efforts that have resulted in violent and illegal regime change.  Yanuk was and still is the legally elected President of the Ukraine, at least until the new elections in May.  That was decided prior to the criminal protesters started tearing up the cities and he fled the area.

          The Russians have as much right to preemptively invade any country that is an imminent threat to their national security.  Just as we have claimed since Powell went to the UN and gave his "mushroom cloud" speech.

          Remember how we pushed Japan into WWII?  Sanctions and blockages.  We tried to "encircle" them.  They came out fighting.

          Our actions have real consequences.  We've been INTENTIONALLY pushing them.  And when they react, we're supposed to say, "Oh, how evil?"

          I don't buy into the propaganda.  We are threatening the Russians directly by subverting the nations that are directly on their borders!

          The Ukraine government itself has already threatened Russia with nuclear war, just give them 6 months to get their systems up and running again, as per the article I finally had to translate from Russian and I provided here.  (I kept thinking they still had their nuclear weapons.)

          In the final analysis, the Russians aren't going to suffer nor are we...the people living in the Ukraine will.  The IMF deals will strip them of their sovereignty, something the Ukraine Constitution forbids.

          The protests started in earnest with them protesting against the criminal elites influence and control..the movement was highjacked and then they were demanding to be part of the criminal elite from the EU.

          This is all laid out in Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine.

          You seem to want to now only focus on Russian actions but ignore what we did to create this crisis in the first place.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:49:48 AM PST

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    •  Please ignore my first few paragraphs below (0+ / 0-)

      My age is catching up to me...I keep thinking the Ukraine has nuclear weapons...they don't  But they have threatened to start making them again and use them against Russia.

      This would still be legitimate justifications, by American standards for "preemptive" actions.

      The rest of my rant, I must stand by.

      ;)

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 03:37:44 AM PST

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