Skip to main content

View Diary: [Updated] Gays, Jews, Nazis, and Ukraine (27 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  Sources? I find this difficult to credit, even (0+ / 0-)

    recognizing the sad history of Ukrainian antisemitism.

    Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

    by another American on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:24:34 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  What I quickly found . . . (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence, Wee Mama, FarWestGirl

      Both Victim and Perpetrator: Ukraine's Problematic Relationship to the Holocaust, by Ingmar Oldberg (published in Baltic Worlds, self-described as " quarterly scholarly journal and news magazine. From the Centre for Baltic and East European Studies (CBEES) Södertörn University, Stockholm."

      According to some estimates, over 900,000 Jews died in Soviet Ukraine between 1941 and 1944 as a result of the genocidal policies of Nazi Germany and its Ukrainian henchmen. This figure actually represents the largest number of victims in any country other than Poland, where the number of victims is estimated at 3.3 million. [fn: Lucy Dawidowich, The War Against the Jews, Middlesex & New York 1975, pp. 477—480. Betsy Gidwitz cites 1,850,000 victims in Ukraine; see “Jewish Life in Ukraine at the Dawn of the Twenty-first Century: Part One”, Jerusalem Letter no. 451, April 2001, www.jspa.org/jl/jl1351.htm (accessed 2010-09-01), p. 4]
      Even at the higher end of the range, and bearing in mind that Ukrainians principally acted as "henchmen," the numbers do not bear out your startling claim.

      Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

      by another American on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:39:35 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Maybe he meant "outdid" on a per capita basis; (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        FarWestGirl

        there were many fewer Ukrainians than Germans.



        Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

        by Wee Mama on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:54:38 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  Notice how they deflect and lie./ (0+ / 0-)

        There is no existence without doubt.

        by Mark Lippman on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:58:43 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Please explain yourself. I truly don't understand. (0+ / 0-)

          nt

          Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

          by another American on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:00:04 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I was commenting about something I noticed (3+ / 0-)

            lately and I should have censored myself.  

            There's a school of thought about the situation involving Ukraine, Russia, Putin, the EU, and the US, promoted mainly by Stephen F Cohen who writes for The Nation. He's also married to Katrina vanden Heuvel who many people recognize from her frequent appearances on MSNBC. Cohen
            has been appearing in the media almost every day for about a month.

            His story is that no criticism of Russia is valid because the US, the EU, and Ukraine are the same or worse. He also originated the claim that the US backed a coup to install a neo-nazi fascist government in Ukraine. The accusation was based on the intercepted phone call between Victoria Nuland & Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt. It only takes a little bit of attention to notice that he's selling propaganda lies, he has no proof of his claims, and he's ignoring the reality of the situation. For instance, Ban Ki Moon and Robert Serry would have to be involved in the alleged coup as well if it was true because Nuland said they were coming to Kyiv "to glue it."

            Nevertheless, Cohen's tales are convincing to people who don't know the situation well enough to see through. The propaganda he's pushing should collapse by itself because of all the issues you cited in your diary. But somehow, it still flies.

            The people who adopted the propaganda and promote it to others have one way of arguing. If someone mentions Russia's faults, they toss it back with a counter accusation. Country X is worse.

            That's not a proper logical argument. It just shifts the focus away from Russia. It's a distraction and a tactic.  If anyone wants to argue that Country X is worse than Russia, it's their claim to prove. They never have any proof because their claims are bullshit. You responded in a very normal and predictable way. But you're being drawn into what I call "a rabbit hole." If the back and forth continued you'd find yourself on the defense.

            Have you heard of Rule for Radicals? Saul Alinsky? His writing outlines some of these basic tactics.

            There is no existence without doubt.

            by Mark Lippman on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:59:21 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's total bullshit (0+ / 0-)

              Bordering on libel.  Professor Cohen is widely respected as an expert on Russia.  Just because you may not agree with him doesn't mean he's some sort of propagandist.

              And your reference to Alinsky is straight from Glen Beck territory.  Which is where you belong.

              "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

              by Paleo on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 11:18:30 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  shorter version: I misinterpreted what's upthread/ (0+ / 0-)

            There is no existence without doubt.

            by Mark Lippman on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 10:04:36 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  Keep in mind that the Ukrainians had no (0+ / 0-)

        "Final Solution" or Hitlerian anti-Semitism as their perverse motivation. They killed Jews to steal their possessions.

        •  Yeah, right (0+ / 0-)

          our research shows that a significant portion of the Ukrainian population voluntarily cooperated with the invaders of their country and voluntarily assisted in the Holocaust. our research shows that a significant portion of the Ukrainian population voluntarily cooperated with the invaders of their country and voluntarily assisted in the Holocaust. As such, the statement to which you object is an accurate answer even though it does not recognize (as it should) the many Ukrainians who resisted the Nazi invasion.

          It is clear that the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) was closely associated with the Nazis and that "Many members of the OUN were Nazi agents involved in subversion, espionage, sabotage, terrorism and outright murder." "Alliance for Murder: the Nazi-Ukrainian Nationalist Partnership in Genocide" B.F. Sabrin, ed. (New York; 1991). It is also clear that many of the 100,000 Ukrainians who volunteered to serve with the Nazis were not coerced into joining the SS. "The Order of the Death's Head," Heinz Hohne (translation published 1970; New York).

          In an effort to make sure that these authors were not biased we also checked the contemporary reports of the Einsatzgruppen which have been published as "The Einsatzgruppen Reports" edited by Arad, Krakowski, and Spector (New York; 1989). While these reports do contain statements such as "Ukrainian mayors and militia commanders were held responsible for hostile utterances against Germany, for ignoring German orders, and for tearing up German regulations." (OSR-USSR 56; August 18, 1941), these contemporary records also document the cooperation of many Ukrainians with the genocide. . . .

          As early as July, 1941, it is reported that in the town of Zlochev that "A revolutionary Ukrainian administration has been established there which welcomes the Germans as their allies with posters and leaflets." (OSR-USSR 24). Other reports detail the cooperation of local Ukrainians with the German army in arresting and murdering Jews. (OSR-USSR 38; OSR-USSR 47). Some of these reports go even further. One states "1,107 Jewish adults were shot by Kommando 4a and 561 juveniles by the Ukrainian militia." (OSR-USSR 88) These are not isolated examples; the reports of the Einsatzgruppen operating in the Ukraine frequently mention the cooperation of Ukrainian militia and populance.
          It is clear that the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) was closely associated with the Nazis and that "Many members of the OUN were Nazi agents involved in subversion, espionage, sabotage, terrorism and outright murder." "Alliance for Murder: the Nazi-Ukrainian Nationalist Partnership in Genocide" B.F. Sabrin, ed. (New York; 1991). It is also clear that many of the 100,000 Ukrainians who volunteered to serve with the Nazis were not coerced into joining the SS. "The Order of the Death's Head," Heinz Hohne (translation published 1970; New York).

          . . . .

          As early as July, 1941, it is reported that in the town of Zlochev that "A revolutionary Ukrainian administration has been established there which welcomes the Germans as their allies with posters and leaflets." (OSR-USSR 24). Other reports detail the cooperation of local Ukrainians with the German army in arresting and murdering Jews. (OSR-USSR 38; OSR-USSR 47). Some of these reports go even further. One states "1,107 Jewish adults were shot by Kommando 4a and 561 juveniles by the Ukrainian militia." (OSR-USSR 88) These are not isolated examples; the reports of the Einsatzgruppen operating in the Ukraine frequently mention the cooperation of Ukrainian militia and populance.

          http://www.holocaust-history.org/...

          "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

          by Paleo on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 11:23:36 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

  • Recommended (170)
  • Baltimore (86)
  • Community (84)
  • Bernie Sanders (66)
  • Freddie Gray (59)
  • Civil Rights (54)
  • Elections (41)
  • Culture (38)
  • Hillary Clinton (36)
  • Media (35)
  • Racism (32)
  • Law (31)
  • 2016 (31)
  • Labor (26)
  • Education (26)
  • Environment (25)
  • Republicans (23)
  • Politics (23)
  • Barack Obama (22)
  • Police (20)
  • Click here for the mobile view of the site