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View Diary: Ukraine crisis: What does the Budapest Memorandum obligate the U.S. to do? (85 comments)

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  •  Not the fault of the west? (5+ / 0-)

    Who expanded NATO to the Russian border line?

    "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

    by Paleo on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 08:56:14 AM PST

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    •  Do you not understand? (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Wee Mama, Dr Swig Mcjigger, wu ming

      If China attempted to sign military treaties with Mexico and Canada, we wouldn't invade them. We'd use our diplomats and other influence to prevent the treaties being signed. Note that you don't hear about the Chinese even trying; they are smart enough to know what the odds are.

      If Western diplomats out-negotiate those of Russia, that means it sucks to be them, not that they get carte blanche to start invading people.

      If you want to be a great power, you have to have more than just an army. Russia failed diplomatically. The West moved into the power vacuum they left by failing.

      Russia's diplomatic failure is tied to their corruption and cronyism. Their economy is not as attractive as that of Western Europe, despite their natural resources and close proximity to Eastern Europe, because of those factors, which are orders of magnitude worse than the Western equivalents.

      Putin's Russia is the 21st century Ottoman Empire, but propped up by natural resources. We don't have to respect their weakness economically and diplomatically, and their incompetence does not grant them rights.

      Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

      by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:05:30 AM PST

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      •  Are you serious? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        greenbell, lordcopper

        The U.S. might not invade Mexico, unlike the other times it has, but when the Germans tried to strike up a military alliance with Mexico in 1917, the U.S. declared war on Germany.

        The U.S. tried to invade Cuba and assasinate Castro.  And brought the world to the brink of nuclear war when the Soviet Union shipped missles to Cuba.  Finally, settling on a starve them out tactic.  The U.S. invaded the Dominican Republic and Grenada when it thought they were led by forces sympathetic to the Soviet Union.

        "When dealing with terrorism, civil and human rights are not applicable." Egyptian military spokesman.

        by Paleo on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:14:31 AM PST

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        •  Are you serious? (0+ / 0-)

          Do you honestly think the US declared war on Germany in 1917 only because of the Zimmerman telegram? Or mainly because of it? Or that it even made the top 50 on the list of real reasons (as opposed to those offered for public consumption)? Don't pull my leg, dude.

          What you are saying is that the United States has acted like a great power in the past. And not one of those actions meets with your approval, I'm sure, except perhaps the Cuban Missile business. So therefore you must either wholeheartedly condemn Putin, or must enthusiastically endorse the US acting like a great power, because giving Russia rights you deny us would be silly.

          I think we're actually in violent agreement. Russia wants to be a great power, doesn't have the diplomatic chops, and therefore resorts to military force, which it ought not to do.

          I further argue that the idea of a great power is 19th century and that the US and China, among others, ought to move away from that idea. I suspect you agree.

          Purity is for primaries; in the general, our worst are better than their best.

          by blue aardvark on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:22:18 AM PST

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        •  Declaring war on Germany had nothing to do, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          blue aardvark

          nothing, I say, with the sinking of the Lusitania or Germany's unrestricted submarine warfare, that is, including U.S. civilian ships going to Britain. In this context, Germany's offer of a military alliance to Mexico was understood as preparing further aggression against the U.S.

          This is not to say that the combatants in World War I were divided between the good guys (all good) and the bad guys (all bad). Christopher Clark's important new history, The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914 puts paid to that notion.

          But context matters. The suggestion that Russia's invasion of Ukraine has anything meaningfully in common with the U.S. declaration of war against Germany in World War I is laughable.

          Shalom v' salaam; peace and wholeness

          by another American on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:22:28 AM PST

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      •  Oh, I expect you'd see some gunboat diplomacy (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        as well.  The reason such treaties are impossible to imagine isn't just that we're famous for our diplomacy.  

    •  That depends: did the additions to NATO arise from (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      blue aardvark

      an invitation by NATO or a request from the nations themselves? To me that makes a difference; I can appreciate that it might not to the Russians.

      Is it true? Is it kind? Is it necessary? . . . and respect the dignity of every human being.

      by Wee Mama on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 09:08:41 AM PST

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