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View Diary: Clinton Goes Godwin on Russia and Putin (68 comments)

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  •  I disagree (5+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lawrence, MartyM, cfm, blueyedace2, thomask

    Ukraine has the right to self determination. If Putin wants to allege that he's just protecting Russians then he should provide proof to the world. If Putin is right then the world can talk about intervening but right now there is very much a "good" side and a "bad" side.

    Outside of the predictable neo con chicken hawk cowards could you point to anyone making "warlike pronouncements" in the US?

    Der Weg ist das Ziel

    by duhban on Tue Mar 04, 2014 at 11:53:17 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Ukraine DOES (11+ / 0-)

      have the right to self-determination. What's not so clear is what role the US has in Ukraine's doing that.

      The problem with Hitler comparisons at this point is that they invite the necessity for early military or other aggressive intervention to prevent wider war down the road. Otherwise what's the point in making that particular comparison?

    •  Half the population of Ukraine WANTS to (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      corvo

      be a part of Russia.  They are ethnic Russian.  Stalin displaced (killed) Ukrainians and moved in Russians.  Like Zionists have done to Palistinians who have been on their lands for thousands of years.

      We are not powerless!! "Activism is the rent I pay for living on this planet."– Alice Walker

      by nocynicism on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 12:07:44 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  And a sizable part of the population of the USA (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Gareth

        wants to secede. You want to let them?

        Frankly those that want to be Russian could just move but even besides this is not how you do it. Russia has no right to do what they are doing

        Der Weg ist das Ziel

        by duhban on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 12:17:30 AM PST

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        •  Russia is issuing passports so the ethnic Russians (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, marina

          can travel back to Russia?

          Is that what is happening here?

          And Hillary is pissed about that. She calls it "population transfers."

          For now, it's just the Berkut getting passports. Other Ukrainian citizens may be offered passports to asylum later.

          ... the former secretary of State said at a fundraiser on Tuesday that Russia's move to start issuing passports in Crimean Ukraine was akin to "population transfers" that happened in Nazi Germany during World War II.

          "She compared issuing Russian passports to Ukrainians with ties to Russia with early actions by Nazi Germany before Hitler began invading neighboring countries," Harry Saltzgaver, editor of a chain of newspapers in Long Beach, said.

          Hillary presumes Putin will now begin invading neighboring countries on some kind of Russian march across Eurasia?  Uh, yeah...


          One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

          by bronte17 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 04:49:29 AM PST

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        •  Well yes to secession (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, nocynicism

          Actually I would love to see the old Confederacy secede!

      •  i'm not sure that's accurate (7+ / 0-)

        while roughly half of ukrainian voters appear to generally favor parties that want to ally ukraine with russia, and while there is a lot of overlap between those voters and ethnic russians + russian-speaking ethnic ukrainians, i'm not sure that we've seen proof that that translates into their support for outright annexation by russia.

        the historical population transfers and ethnic cleansing is correct, though.

      •  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        cryonaut, duhban, indie17

        evidence.

        Where is your evidence that half the population of Ukraine wants to be part of Russia?

        I think your claim is pulled out of thin air.  80% of Ukraine's citizens are ethnic Ukrainians and even a lot of the ethnic Russians consider themselves to be Ukrainians, not Russians.

        And after Putin's invasion I think it is pretty safe to say that Ukrainians, in general, now have a far more negative view of Russia, even many of the Ukrainians who may have wanted closer ties with Russia before.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 12:54:36 AM PST

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        •  Russia had been providing billions in aid (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          corvo, marina

          to Ukraine... and cut it down. Because of several reasons and corruption was one of them.

          And Ukraine needed many hundreds of billions because it hasn't snapped out of its 3rd recession since the world financial meltdown.

          The issue here seems to be the struggle over incorporating Ukraine with the EU trading block versus the Russian Customs Union (leading to a Eurasian Economic Union modeled on the EU).

          Ukrainian anti-government protesters demanded to know what President Viktor Yanukovych had ceded to seal $15 billion of Russian financial aid and a one-third discount on energy imports.

          Russia will buy Ukrainian state debt this year and next and will cut the price it charges for natural gas to $268.50 per 1,000 cubic meters, President Vladimir Putin said after meeting Yanukovych in Moscow yesterday. The two leaders said they didn’t discuss a Russia-led customs union after speculation Ukraine was close to joining riled pro-European demonstrators in Kiev.

          --snip--

          Russia’s intention is “crystal clear,” Yatsenyuk said today on Bloomberg Television. It wants to “restore the Soviet Union, which is called the Customs Union.


          One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. --Carl Jung

          by bronte17 on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 05:08:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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