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View Diary: Obama to Israel: "If not now, when?" (94 comments)

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  •  Look, the administration's actions are not (17+ / 0-)

    changing, but the public stance is. And the recognition, and warning, that if peace talks fail, the U.S. will be in no position to manage the international fallout -- and boycotts -- is significant in my view.

    "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

    by David Harris Gershon on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 06:50:28 AM PST

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    •  meaningless verbiage (6+ / 0-)

      that will all be forgotten once Hillary Clinton takes office and show us what she's made of on the matter.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 07:07:33 AM PST

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      •  I can't remember what it was (5+ / 0-)

        made me cringe. something she said when still SoS. Something 1%, imperialist, war-apologist.

        All the bipartisan national politicians support of the war machine makes me sick.

        The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

        by stargaze on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 07:50:33 AM PST

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        •  Practically every time she opens her mouth (8+ / 0-)

          on a foreign policy issue, quite frankly.

          And when it comes to Israel, she rivals Chuck Schumer in the extremity of her support.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 07:52:33 AM PST

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          •  The threaten Palestinians if they resort to law. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stargaze

            The UK and US both have threatened dire consequences to the Palestinians attempt to use the courts and international law. What more need anyone need to know than that astonishing and blatant admission of criminality and hypocrisy.

            Only thugs threaten people who attempt legal means to achieve justice. What is striking is the lack of pretense at morality, Obama's blathering aside.

    •  But "peace talks" will never "fail"; (9+ / 0-)

      they'll always be followed by more "peace talks."

      That will be our MO until Israel absorbs the entire WB and god knows what else.

      And as for international fallout, I'm still waiting for any meaningful sign of it.  Some boycott actions lacking any support from any government anywhere (and usually roundly condemned by them) and a couple of portfolio divestments really aren't cutting it.  Nor is propping up Abbas's regime, which exists only to make the WB safe for Israeli settlers.

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 07:11:18 AM PST

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      •  I'm of the opinion that the boycott movement, (8+ / 0-)

        which is already having a noticeable economic impact in Israel, will grow exponentially "once" these talks fail.

        Channel 2 in Israel already did an expose on the economic impact currently, with dire predictions for Israel should the status quo continue.

        "If the Jew who struggles for justice for Palestine is considered anti-Semitic, & if Palestinians seeking self-determination are so accused...then no oppositional move can take place w/o risking the accusation." - Judith Butler

        by David Harris Gershon on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 08:55:27 AM PST

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      •   I tip your comment in the Gandhian spirit of (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        stargaze, AoT, Fishtroller01, wu ming

        constructive engagement, Corvo, not out of agreement, but respect for your opinion. I don't know why but I feel some compulsion to encourage you not to be so discouraged.

        You may be correct about potential lack of follow through from successive administrations but shouldn't we support President Obama in his last ditch bid to make this work?

        Under a tacit, or even explicit agreement that if it fails, the Democratic left will have no choice but to join BDS efforts, demand a nuclear free Middle East, ending the secret 30 plus year deal support "nuclear ambiguity," demand the right to vote for everyone residing, "apparently" permanently withing "occupied territories."

        Many otherwise progressive, democratic, and egalitarian American Jews and Democrats have held back doing what we should have done long ago, fully pushing back against the right-wing extremists in Israel as they allied themselves with the US right wing to push American policies to the right.

        But, when senior members of Netanyahu's administration attack SoS Kerry as being antisemitic, and even attacks DNC chair Debbie Wasserman-Shultz they crossed a line and made rubbish out of any further charges of antisemitism on anything.  It will not take American Jews and even Israeli very long to see that in this specific regard, that more harm to this cause has no come from P.M. Natanyahu, AIPAC, their Likud and other right-wing supporters in Israel.

        Similarly, by openly declaring war on the Democratic Party, a sitting American Democratic President on national security matters, lead most conspicuously by Senator Menendez and others, AIPAC, and these same extreme right-wing zealots have driven a wedge between their America supporters and inside the Democratic Party that will not only allow, but perhaps even require loyal progressive-left Democrats, and American Jews who support Israel to explicitly and conspicuously take sides against AIPAC and their inappropriate partisan attempts to undermine President Obama's efforts to protect our national security.  

        This was a horrendous blunder on the part of AIPAC, which they realized quickly, as soon as many of us pointed it out, but exposed a truth which we all knew but did not speak of. AIPAC no longer has any credibility as a bipartisan national organization for American Jews, but instead is acting as a de-facto lobbying arm of the right-wing political parties of a foreign government. (And, should be required to register as a foreign lobby, now that this is clear.)

        Who gets the credit for this stunning development? Not Jihadist terrorists, but AIPAC, Likud, and right-wing followers of P.M. Netanyahu. self led delegitimization, or auto-delegitimization.

        But, it gets more dramatic. What is his reaction to these self-induced blunders? To double down and become more strident, in the classics "fixes that fail," aka "fixes-that-backfire" archetype.

        Like someone in quick sand, who in a panic, does more of the exact same thing causing his problem, doubling down on struggling.

        So a few weeks ago, P.M Netanyahu had an emergency meeting with top security advisers on the BDS threat. Did they review their policies for substantive change? No, they authorized $100 million for more aggressive Hasbara efforts to expand the departments in the Ministries of Intelligence and Defense to identify BDS supporters and other critics and run counter-intelligence and public relations operations against them.  And, announced it in the newpapers!

        Seriously, Netanyahu, WTH?

        Ya don't need a degree in systems control theory mathematics to predict where this feedback loop is going. Its a downward spiral of self-destructing legitimacy for Netanyahu and his right-wing supporters. In Israel, here in American (with AIPAC,) and around the world.

        But, in his mind, he sees nothing virulent anti-Israeli  conspiracy. Which he has equated with antisemitism, even to the point of accusing Jewish teachers of the Torah like David Harris Gershan, of being "self-hating" Jews, and enemies of his state.

        These seem to me to be much bigger and irreversible changes that have already crossed grey lines, red lines, and the lines of common sense of ordinary people.

        We only have to wait for time delays for this already created image to pervade the media landscape and you will see we are in a completely new era.

        P.M. Netanyahu has done more to advance the credibility of BDS movements than any other single individual. (Except for perhaps, Alan Dershowitz.)

         far, every time

        "Seriously, Folk. WTF?" - (h/t Joan McCarter, Seriously, Florida. WTF?)

        by HoundDog on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 08:56:51 AM PST

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        •  As long as Bibi's opposition on I/P (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          HoundDog, Johnny Q, wu ming

          within Israel comes from his own right -- there's hardly anything to his left -- his and his government's behavior become(s) perfectly sensible.  Appalling, but sensible.  

          And really, it's going to take something spectacular to dislodge American support for Israel.  It's nice to crow over a little egg on AIPAC's face, but one should keep in mind that the position of, say, J Street on I/P is only cosmetically different.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 09:12:53 AM PST

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          •  So what do you advocate? (0+ / 0-)

            "Seriously, Folk. WTF?" - (h/t Joan McCarter, Seriously, Florida. WTF?)

            by HoundDog on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 09:35:51 AM PST

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            •  I'm afraid it doesn't matter. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Fishtroller01, Johnny Q

              The only way out of this clusterf*ck is via spectacular violence, and I'm a pacifist.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 10:13:47 AM PST

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              •  well it seems to me a true pacifist would try to (0+ / 0-)

                help these people find a peaceful way out of their current conundrum.

                "Seriously, Folks, WTH?" - ("What the Heck? "h/t Joan McCarter, Seriously, Florida. WTF?)

                by HoundDog on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 12:16:11 PM PST

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              •  I find pacifism problematical, as opposed to non-v (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                MrJayTee, poco

                violence as a tactic.

                In the historical record has shown the ruling class has and will be quite willing to use deadly violence. Look at how many Occupy sites were cleared with thin pretexts.

                Many early 20th c labor disputes had people being killed. Funny thing, that didn't much work as a tactic for the 1% as workers fought back harder. So other means have been used that didn't have the effect of activating the workers.

                When it's practical, I support non-violence, which is almost always, because violence will scare off supporters and invites escalation. But without a credible threat of mass attack the people on the top will just plan to keep on harvesting with impunity.

                The boss needs you, you don't need him. -- France general strike, May 1968

                by stargaze on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 01:45:42 PM PST

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                •  I see your point, and given the (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  MrJayTee, stargaze

                  specific circumstance I wouldn't be surprised if our choice of tactics were the same.

                  This much said, remember that you're on a site where anything that can be interpreted as a call to violence against an entity we haven't already declared open season on can result in your immediate banning. ;-)

                  Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                  by corvo on Wed Mar 05, 2014 at 03:30:37 PM PST

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                •  Exactly so. Strategic non-violence is great. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  poco, stargaze

                  But there is no principle of decency or morality that demands you allow yourself to be ground under someone's boot to avoid violence.

                  I don't need the revolution to be dainty, I need it to be successful. Where non-violence furthers the revolution, I'm all for it.

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