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View Diary: Ukrainian Jewish Leaders to Putin: You Lie, Leave Ukraine in Peace. (308 comments)

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  •  Sometimes people say things because it's the (8+ / 0-)

    safest thing to say at the moment.

    From Svoboda Party's website http://en.svoboda.org.ua/...

    The Svoboda Party (formerly the Social National Party of Ukraine) was formed with the unification of the activists of nationalistic community organizations ...
         Svoboda's ideology stems from "Two Revolutions", a book written by Yaroslav Stetsko, leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN):
    Who is this inspiration for the Ukraine nationalist Parties -- the former Social-National Party in particular? Yarslav Stetsko they claim. Stetsko said this in his autobiography:
    In August of 1941 Stetsko wrote his autobiography. It was addressed to the German authorities, and contained several notable antisemitic passages, in particular he stated that he considered Marxism a product of Jewish thought, that was put into practice by the Muscovite-Asiatic people with Jewish assistance; ...he absolutely endorses the idea of the indubitable harmful role of Jews in the enslavement of Ukraine by Moscow. He finally states that he absolutely endorses the extermination of Jews, and the rationality of the German methods of extermination of Jews, instead of assimilating them.
    Did you catch 'Social National' btw? Oh, well I suppose none of that actually happened because after all our very responsible media wouldn't hide relevant facts about important matters. Nor would our peace-loving political class.

    Here's office-holders in the current government:

    • Oleksandr Shlapak, Svoboda, Ministry of Finance
    • Andriy Parubiy, Svoboda and Right Sector Leader. Secretary of the Security and National Defense Committee (almost appoints regional officials)
    • Serhiy Kvit, Svoboda. Education Ministry
    • Andriy Makhnyk, Svoboda. Ecology Ministry
    • Ihor Shvaiko, Svoboda. Agriculture Ministry
    • Oleh Makhnitsky, Svoboda. Prosecutor-general of the Ukraine.
    • Tetyana Chernovol, UNA-UNSO, cabinet position, head of anti-corruption committee.
    • Dmytro Bulatov, with UNA-UNSO connections, Minister of youth and sports.

    Security (including appointment of regional governors and officials), Justice, Education, Agriculture. But I guess that's not really power when you think about it.

    You might be interested to read the translate of UNA-UNSO's (google translate) page on how Putin is a pawn of the Hassidim. http://una-unso.info/... (If that doesn't work go to google web page translator, put in the URL.)

    Of course, their bigotry, their hatred doesn't stop with Jewish people. It includes women's rights, gays, Russians, foreigners, black and brown people.... but what of that?


    Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

    by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:28:19 PM PST

    •  all very true, and we should be (6+ / 0-)

      watching how they govern in Ukraine.

      But, should their presence change how the US responds to Putin's actions in Crimea?

      •  I'd worry more about the beam in my own eye. (5+ / 0-)

        And all we can do about Putin in the Crimea is bluster, and mainly for domestic appearances and to take our minds off our many very real problems. Maybe we can cut them out of the world economy... but, no, we can't. Not without hurting ourselves and Europe.

        I'm pretty sure that part of Putin's motivation is he wants to be the first to kick the Paper Tiger and laugh about it. The rest of the world, the 1% excluded, is looking at us as the Insane Rich Uncle who has to be tolerated for now until they can work out other arrangements. Hence, all those nations making agreements to trade in their own currencies, talking about getting a new reserve currency, etc.


        Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

        by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:41:33 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So far (5+ / 0-)

          all I see is the US doing exactly what the EU is doing, who have front center seats, which is offering substantial financial and technical support to the Ukrainian government. It's too soon for actions against Russia itself, and that will also have to be led by the EU - after all, as you point out they are the ones that would take the brunt of any reciprocation on Russia's part.

          As to Putin's motivations, I'm not going to do any armchair psychoanalysis. Especially when his actions are far more easily explained by historical (meaning, predating the existence of the US itself) power politics in that part of the world.

          •  Power politics in that part of the world has to do (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cybrestrike

            with having buffers between Russia and enemies. And it's not psychoanalysis: the world's sick of us and if you read more than our pathetic press you'll see most everyone (excepting some European states) are taking active steps to not need us anymore.


            Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

            by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 09:03:32 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

      •  The US isn't considering sending a pile of cash to (6+ / 0-)

        Russia, we're considering sending a pile of cash to the folks in Kiev.  

        It's quite true that the far right and Nazi elements in Ukraine are not a huge part of the population. They only garnered 10% in the last election (which observers said was very well run).  And the Right Sector had no presence whatsoever in public affairs until the current unelected group was self-installed.  Now the right has about 25% of the cabinet posts and many of the critical ones.  and Right sector is holding actual fucking security positions.

        Putin's a putz, but that doesn't make what's happened in Kiev anything other than a power grab that we helped enable and that has been a windfall for neo nazis.

        To deny that is to deny reality.

        Oh, and here's a quote from the current Svoboda Deputy Prime Minister

        Oleksandr Sych, Deputy prime minister

        Sych, 49, is a member of the far-right nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party. He is an anti-abortion activist and once publicly suggested that women should “lead the kind of lifestyle to avoid the risk of rape, including refraining from drinking alcohol and being in controversial company”. He has attracted criticism from women’s and human rights groups.

        "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

        by nailbender on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:52:50 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  I've never said that Sovboda (8+ / 0-)

          is not alarming. What I am saying is that our view of Sovboda should not change how our view, or our response (if any) to Russia's land grab. A minister can be fired, and so far it seems that the Parliament still functions. An occupying army is much less easily expelled.

          •  The parliament is an ad hoc golem, created by the (4+ / 0-)

            Maidan crowd out of the chaos, extra-constitutionally.  The second-largest contingent of the opposition groups, UDAR, was completely excluded because Klitschko's personal appeal was too threatening to the oligarchs of the Fatherland party and the thugs of Svoboda and the Right Sector. To say it's working is a bald faced euphemism.

            Putin is a bad actor but in no way is he a Hitler like threat.  The Right Sector, however, is an outright, philosophically committed Nazi group and they've got positions of power in this outfit we're currently enabling and about to fund.  Let the Rabbi wax sanguine about the vigilantes in Kiev. Rabbis are often wrong, and many were wrong about Hitler back in the '30s.  

            They've already passed a language law reminiscent of what US right wingers have tried here with their English only laws.  Putin might be a putz but they're handing him plenty of live ammunition to fight the polemic war with.

            "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

            by nailbender on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:17:00 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  the parliament (9+ / 0-)

              is still the same individuals who were in office prior to  Yanukovych's dismissal, by that parliament. No ad hoc about it - they are the same people.

              Yes, there are too many rightists (arguably true fascists). The language law was vetoed, by the way. And we do have english only laws in 28 states. I'm not about to condemn Ukraine for having the same types of dangerous actors we have. But each and every one of the actors you (and I) are worried about are serving at the pleasure of an ELECTED parliament. They can be fired. An occupying army (which may well already be in the Crimea) is not so easily fired.

              •  My bad, it was late last night and I mis-wrote. (3+ / 0-)

                I meant to say that the cabinet was ad hoc. It was formed under the cloud of vigilantism that had Right Sector squads spray painting swastikas on the hallways of the parliament building after they'd forced the Rada to ditch their power sharing deal with Yanukovych.

                The fact remains that the UDAR was aced out of the cabinet while the totally electorally null Right Sector got power far beyond their fringe constituency, while Svoboda's purchase on power rose to more than double their electoral strength. It was those right wingers' command of the mob that gave them that purchase.

                And yes, Turchynov, after urgent EU appeals during the week after the Rada voided the existing language law that gives minority status to any regional language (not just Russian), vetoed that repeal.

                "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

                by nailbender on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:45:13 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

            •  The language law did not go through. (7+ / 0-)

              It was vetoed.

              Please don't spread false information.

              "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

              by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 07:33:19 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  See above. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                cybrestrike

                One more note, though: in vetoing the Rada's nullification of the existing law that gives minority languages status, he also ordered the drafting of a new language law.  We'll see how that turns out.

                "Well, yeah, the Constitution is worth it if you succeed." - Nancy Pelosi, 6/30/07 // "Succeed?" At what?

                by nailbender on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:58:37 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

    •  That premise makes no sense. (7+ / 0-)

      If the Rabbi in Crimea were saying the safest thing, he sure wouldn't be criticizing Putin....

      Criticizing Putin is not very safe, in general, if you are a high profile figure in Russia's sphere of influence.

      "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

      by Lawrence on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:40:41 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Ah. And he lives, where? In Moscow? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Wreck Smurfy, CIndyCasella

        Who lives closer to him and his community? Can knock on his door in the time it takes to walk crosstown. Svoboda or Putin?

        Okay, who lives closer to him, is very well-armed, and has praised the extermination of Jews and travelled to other countries in support of Nazi war criminals on trial -- Svoboda or Putin?


        Actual Democrats: the surest, quickest, route to More Democrats. And actually addressing our various emergencies.

        by Jim P on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 06:46:38 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

    •  None of this is true. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mickT, protectspice

      I have it on good authority that all the people in the new Ukrainian government are nice folks, more or less progressive Democrats.  My buddy Curveball knows them all personally, and he vouches for them completely.

    •  The elections are scheduled (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Lawrence

      for May. I'm sure that will re-shuffle the leadership positions. In any event, they will give us a better picture of how the Ukraine will act in the years to come.

      Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

      by OIL GUY on Thu Mar 06, 2014 at 09:16:40 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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