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View Diary: Keystone Isn't Any Normal Pipeline (154 comments)

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  •  *My*argument against a trade off (5+ / 0-)

    is actually not the argument of the environmental community, as far as I can see.

    The argument of the environmental community is that tar sands mining represents final catastrophic defeat for the planet, and therefore compromises and trades that involve building KXL are unacceptable. That wasn't my point. In fact, I had taken off my enviro activist hat and put on my person-who-has-lobbied-a-lot-in-Congress hat when I made that comment.

    ALT-E has my full support, but you were suggesting some kind of a "trade" that would make it more economically competitive with fossil fuels. Some form of "We'll let you build KXL if you give us this or that economic concession." I was assuming, since you mentioned taxes, that you were talking about government taking action to make this trade and those economic concessions happen. That usually involves legislation, unless what you're talking about is negotiating an entirely new trade treaty with Canada--and wouldn't such a treaty violate the terms of NAFTA? I guess what I'm saying is, what trade do you expect to be made, and who do you think is going to make it?

    Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

    by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 09:25:36 AM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Republicans want the KXL very bad (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      nicteis

      Lets start with, the public supports the KXL by BIG margins.  Yep, they've drank the Koch brothers cool aid.  This makes it really hard for Dems to oppose it.  The R's want to drill baby drill and want to rub the Dems noses in it.

      Call it a surcharge, a pipeline charge, a gasoline tax...whatever, but I do believe you could get something through congress that would get maybe 5-10% dedicated to ALT-E.  Obama has all along said he wants an everything approach to energy.  This fits right into his argument.  He gets ALT-E and the R's get dirty oil.  Absolutely no approval unless he gets big ALT-E dollars.  5% on 2 million barrels a day would be about $3.6B/year for ALT-E and would add about $.10 to a gallon of gas.

      A better battery changes the whole world and makes Tar Sands Oil nearly impossible to compete.

      http://beforeitsnews.com/...

      •  Again: I've got nothing, but nothing against (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        pollwatcher, NoMoreLies, JVolvo

        technological innovations in alternative energy.

        But this:

        Lets start with, the public supports the KXL by BIG margins.  Yep, they've drank the Koch brothers cool aid.  This makes it really hard for Dems to oppose it.  The R's want to drill baby drill and want to rub the Dems noses in it.
        Doesn't add up to this:
        Absolutely no approval unless he gets big ALT-E dollars.
        unless you had a Lyndon Johnson or Harry Truman-style President who wielded his authority regardless of circumstances like:  all the massive money on the other side; 65% of people in the country supporting KXL. For better or worse, that's not Obama. He doesn't oppose prevailing trends unless he has Pete Peterson levels of money behind him.

         In my experience, in DC people don't deal with you--in the sense of making concessions--unless they have to. If they think they can get what they want without making concessions to you, they absolutely will. Why should the Republicans deal? They had oil Democrats standing with them before the 65% approval survey came out; now they've got the American public's support as well. If you or anybody can get them to exchange a progressive, renewable-energy-friendly tax law for the construction of Keystone XL, I'll--well, I won't eat my hat, but I'll buy you three rounds of free drinks, anything up to the 12-year-old Bushmills.

        The only thing in DC that could stop this at the moment is a firm conviction on the part of President Obama, held to in spite of the pressures of realpolitik, that the pipeline project is morally wrong, bad for America, and more or less without merit except for the profits it generates for its shareholders. He'd have to make a personal decision and stick to it. This is unlikely.

        Because people know it's unlikely, they will be unlikely to trade anything for a result they think is inevitable.

        Our original question was whether protests or insider negotiations would work better. My contention was that your only chance of having insider negotiations that would be successful was having a robust protest movement, and even then it would be a long shot. After seeing the poll results, I'd say that federally we're fucked unless Obama has a moral moment.

        Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

        by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 02:00:17 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  You've thrown the gauntlet (0+ / 0-)

          and it's making me mighty thirsty;

          but I'll buy you three rounds of free drinks, anything up to the 12-year-old Bushmills.
          Obama announces that he favors a multi-front approach to energy independence, so he is ready to sign off on the pipeline as soon as the congress removes the oil depletion tax break and appropriates the savings to ALT-E research and development.

          The public might like the KXL, but they also like ALT-E, and hate corporate welfare.  Now it's the Republicans who are holding up the pipeline in order to keep tax breaks for their corporate contributors.

          Where do we meet for the drinks? A 12 year old Macallan would be nice. :)

          •  And Congress is going to do that? Really? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JVolvo

            Is it a purely Senate matter, or is the House involved? If the House is involved, are you saying that the House Republicans are going to give Obama cover for a decision which is going to make him unpopular with his base, by allowing him to remove tax breaks from one of their favorite industries? If it's just the Senate, do you think Republican senators are going to want to give Obama that kind of cover, and piss off their donor base?  And how are you going to get people like Mary Landrieu to vote for removing a tax break for big oil?

            You can bet that the Republicans in the Senate will not go along with any deal. They'll hold out and expect the pressure from the private sector to make Obama cave.

            If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to buy you that Macallan. 3 rounds. :-)

            Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:46:54 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  And by the way, let's call that "multi-front (0+ / 0-)

            approach" by its right name: an "all of the above energy strategy," popularized most recently by George W. Bush.

            Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:48:50 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  Remember that this is a Congress (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            JVolvo

            that has a mighty hard time passing a Farm Bill or a bill to keep our roads paved, or, for that matter, a raise to the debt ceiling. I repeat:  if they actually manage to do what you say, I'll buy you 3 rounds.

            Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Fri Mar 07, 2014 at 03:52:28 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

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