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View Diary: Ukraine: The Elephant (or Should We Say Bear?) in The Room (232 comments)

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  •  Please don't let facts get in the way (6+ / 0-)

    of your argument:

    what happened not long after the end of WWII? our military basically surrounded Russia with bases, with missiles pointed at them--
    Who occupied Poland, Hungary, Romania, the Baltic states, East Germany and surrounding areas for 45 years after WW2, installing puppet regimes and crushing all dissent? Russia.

    Western Europe wanted American troops there to defend them from the threat posed by Russia.

    Did Poland or the Baltic states or the rest of Eastern Europe welcome the Russian occupation? No.

    Defending our European allies from Russian aggression 70 years ago does not excuse Putin's paranoia, or his occupation of Ukraine.

    Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

    by bear83 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 09:41:40 AM PDT

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    •  Wrong, the Soviet Union did these things. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Ray Pensador

      Why was Western Europe afraid of Russia?

      You can't equate the collapsed gov't of the Soviet Union to Russia afterwards.

      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

      by gerrilea on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 01:49:27 PM PDT

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      •  Sorry but Europe was fearful of (0+ / 0-)

        Russia long before the Soviet Union.

        Are you familiar with the phrases "the Gendarme of Europe" and "the prison house of Nations"?

        There are long histories involved here. Events in the 20th century are just the tip of the ice berg.

        Nothing human is alien to me.

        by WB Reeves on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 02:09:44 PM PDT

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        •  I understand history but didn't the Russian (0+ / 0-)

          people cut their heads off during the 1917 Revolution?

          The same players that instilled fear and loathing are long dead.

          This isn't about fear, it's about control.  Who will control these lands to do with them as they please.

          The Ukraine is the second largest nation in Europe behind Russia by area.

          How A Fight Over Natural Resources Is Quietly Driving The World’s Response To Ukraine

          To compare Russia today to some Czarist Russia of the past is propaganda meant to obfuscate the facts on the ground, right now.

          I do not agree with the "framing".  The facts tell us otherwise.

          -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

          by gerrilea on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 06:48:41 PM PDT

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          •  The point is that there is a long history (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Hey338Too, serendipityisabitch

            of conflict between Russia and various European nations. So it's hardly surprising that some might fear Russian intentions.

            It's easy to understand why Russian intervention in Ukraine might make Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Hungarians, etc., nervous, not to mention the rest of Europe.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 07:50:15 PM PDT

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            •  I don't deny their fears, whether real or imagined (0+ / 0-)

              but the United States, our gov't, created this situation.  Did we think the Russians would just walk away from their military bases in the Crimea?

              And our policy of "containment" is code for a continuation of our worldwide economic subjugation at the hands of our corporate overlords.

              It's not about "bringing democracy" or protecting the actual people of the Ukraine or Europe.

              Enforcing American Hegemony.

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 08:12:23 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  You say potAto (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        debedb

        I say potato.

        Soviet Union / Russia - both authoritarian regimes, both feared by Europe.

        Election Day is Nov 4th, 2014 It's time for the Undo button on the 2010 Election.

        by bear83 on Sun Mar 09, 2014 at 06:39:03 PM PDT

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