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View Diary: Why I am not (much) here any more. (122 comments)

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  •  Your fundamental message.... (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Argyrios

    ....unfortunately abdicates the field of the issues associated with regulating oil and gas industry operations which are current and ongoing in California.

    When you spend all of your time pursuing a moratorium on hydraulic fracturing, what you are doing is to abdicate the field of play on the stringency issues of conducting the environmental regulation of the oil and gas industry.

    The practical effect of what you are doing is to try to align Democrats with a line of thought that it is impossible to regulate the oil and gas industry, or that all government efforts to regulate the oil and gas industry are ineffective or failures. ....and therefor it is somehow not of primary importance to address the content and enforceability of regulations binding on oil and gas industry operations.

    •  Funny enough... (15+ / 0-)

      I see something different. And I doubt I'm the only one seeing this.

      I see a crew of committed and shrewd activists refusing to settle for weak sauce masquerading as "tough regulation". As I hinted at above, I've seen what (and who) is actually behind that "tough regulation".

      Sure, some regulation is better than none. But in the case of fracking, is some regulation enough? I've researched this issue for over a year, and so far I've seen plenty of evidence suggesting that's not the case. There's a reason why other communities (and even a few countries) have outright banned fracking. (Hint: It's so dangerous, some "tough regulation" isn't enough to curtail the catastrophes that follow.)

      •  Your position, apparently, is that it is not (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Argyrios

        possible to regulate hydraulic fracturing.  

        Inherent in a position saying that it is not possible to regulate hydraulic fracturing is science and engineering denial of the effectiveness of current requirements binding on the oil and gas industry concerning hydraulic fracturing practices in many states around the country.

        Using science denial to promote a position advocating for a hydraulic fracturing moratorium is not distinguishable from Tea Party tactics holding that all government is bad and ineffective.

    •  Maybe it's my wee brain... (12+ / 0-)

      ...but I don't see how you go from working to get a fracking moratorium bill passed to this;

      the practical effect of what you are doing is to try to align Democrats with a line of thought that it is impossible to regulate the oil and gas industry, or that all government efforts to regulate the oil and gas industry are ineffective or failures. ....and therefor it is somehow not of primary importance to address the content and enforceability of regulations binding on oil and gas industry operations.
      Seriously? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I suspect that a fracking moratorium is not the be all and end all of the California Democratic's environmental caucus.

      If you have anything aside from your opinion to back that up I'd like to see it.

      Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

      by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 05:59:29 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  If you are working on a fracking moratorium, (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Argyrios

        your are not working on effective environmental, public health and process safety regulation of the oil and gas industry.    

        It is that simple.

        Democrats starting with Senator Muskie have always been practical about making government work to address public health, safety and the environment.

        The path to getting more effective regulation of the oil and gas industry does not go through Democrats having a primary emphasis and campaign to end hydraulic fracturing through a moratorium.

        •  You keep saying that.. (7+ / 0-)

          ...but saying that doesn't make it so.

          Let me show you how that works.
          I am tall, dark and handsome. Excuse me while I go look in the bathroom mirror............. Nope, still short, pale and...average looking.

          How does working on a fracking moratorium preclude one from also working on stronger and effective regulation and stronger enforcement of said regulations of the oil and gas industry?

          Assuming for the moment that we can have both would you still be against a fracking moratorium?

          Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

          by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 07:02:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You asked... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Argyrios
            Assuming for the moment that we can have both would you still be against a fracking moratorium?
            No such assumption can be made because a hydraulic fracturing moratorium policy is inherently contradictory to government regulation of hydraulic fracturing, which is explicitly in contradiction to a moratorium.
            How does working on a fracking moratorium preclude one from also working on stronger and effective regulation and stronger enforcement of said regulations of the oil and gas industry?
            Working on a hydraulic fracturing moratorium is not an activity or policy based on science and engineering knowledge.   There is no scientific consensus that hydraulic fracturing should be ended in California or anywhere else.  
            •  I think you keeping making blanket assertions... (6+ / 0-)

              without reference to any facts. I don't see how this is a either/or proposition.  I don't see how being anti-fracking is point blank a anti-science position.  

              Is there a downside to fracking in your opinion? Can you tell me what the scientific consensus is on fracking?
              Can you reference any material to support this consensus.

              It's clear that you're opposed to a moratorium on oil and gas fracking so let's move on to something you say that you do support; regulation.

              What would effective regulation on fracking be? Would this effective regulation allay the concerns on water use, water contamination, earthquakes?

              Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

              by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 07:58:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  you asked: (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                RosyFinch
                What would effective regulation on fracking be? Would this effective regulation allay the concerns on water use, water contamination, earthquakes?
                Hydraulic fracturing is a well completion operation that is carried out after well construction operations.   Regulation of hydraulic fracturing is just a small part of the focus of regulating oil and gas industry operations.  

                Effective state regulations addressing hydraulic fracturing address the entire well construction, well completion, flowback period and production operations.   That means regulations addressing the all drilling operations, blowout prevention, casing and cementing requirements, site storage, processing and disposal of drilling mud and process wastewater, disposition and control of all gases released, site control of spills, etc.

                Hydraulic fracturing has not been shown to damage potable groundwater, as determined by U.S. EPA and DOE.

                Water conditions in California call for mandatory recycling of produced water from hydraulic fracturing operations.

                Oil/gas operators should be required to conduct pre and post sampling of water wells adjacent to planned drilling sites.

                Colorado-style controls on methane emissions are needed.

                s there a downside to fracking in your opinion? Can you tell me what the scientific consensus is on fracking?   Can you reference any material to support this consensus.
                EPA's position reflects a scientific consensus that hydraulic fracturing can be done without harm to drinking water in a properly installed and operated hydrocarbon well:

                http://www2.epa.gov/...

                DOE takes a similar position.

                This material from the National Conference of State Legislatures shows the kind of thing that state oil/gas regulatory officials are doing around the country:

                http://www.ncsl.org/...

                This University of Michigan report reflects a consensus scientific view:

                http://graham.umich.edu/...

                This position statement by the National Groundwater Association reflects a scientific consensus:

                http://www.ngwa.org/...

                •  I'm reading through this as best I can. (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  aliasalias, julesrules39

                  My first comment.
                  EPA's study is still in progress.  

                  ...a draft report is expected to be released for public comment and peer review in 2014.
                  It would seem to me that it's premature to state that
                  EPA's position reflects a scientific consensus that hydraulic fracturing can be done without harm to drinking water in a properly installed and operated hydrocarbon well
                  More comments as I go along.

                  Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

                  by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 09:07:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  And while you supplied no link... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  julesrules39

                  ...to the DOE's position a news item from the AP indicates that their studies are also still ongoing.

                  Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

                  by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 09:23:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  The Univ. of Michigan revised report... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  julesrules39

                  ...is dated 6/12.  

                  I note that the majority of regulations in the report we're status'd as pending.

                  In regards to California regulations, is SB4 an example of effective regulation in your book?

                  Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

                  by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 09:43:53 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Reading through the NGWA press release for... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  stevenaxelrod

                  ....their position paper:

                  “The greater use of horizontal wells and the hydraulic fracturing technology has the potential to significantly expand natural gas and oil supplies, and hold down prices,” NGWA states in a new position paper. “However, concomitant with this enhanced production is the increased possibility for groundwater contamination, and other impacts to drinking water supplies, if best practices and proper procedures are not used, and if appropriate regulations are not in place.”
                  “NGWA recognizes that hydraulic fracturing of oil and gas wells is a mature technology and has been a widespread practice for many decades. While no widespread water quality or quantity issues have been definitively documented…NGWA believes additional studies, research and monitoring related to the potential for groundwater contamination from the installation, hydraulic fracturing, operation, and maintenance of oil and gas wells are needed,”

                  Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

                  by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 10:11:42 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  That's about all the time I can spend... (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  renbear, RLMiller

                  ...on your document dump tonight.
                  I might continue with this tomorrow though the comment thread in this diary has pretty much died down.

                  Maybe I'll start a new diary tomorrow and ask for help with understanding these links.

                  One more thing.  
                  You kinda evaded one of my questions:
                  Is there a downside to fracking in your opinion?

                  Your are, of course, under no obligation to answer but I wish you would.

                  Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)

                  by Arilca Mockingbird on Mon Mar 10, 2014 at 10:27:13 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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