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View Diary: Conservative hero Ben Carson says U.S. is 'very much like Nazi Germany' (221 comments)

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  •  unless people are getting pushed into ovens, (5+ / 0-)

    NO.

    ... all that oration sounds like capitulation now.

    by Darwinita on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 01:01:22 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  you MUST be kidding me . . . (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      graceadams830

      wow. no wonder people leave this site.

      “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

      by pfiore8 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 01:23:07 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why would I kid (8+ / 0-)

        about something that shrank my family down to almost nothing?

        Sorry, but until America starts actually rounding people up and killing them, we are in no way anything like Nazi Germany.

        Anything else is just stupid hyperbole.

        ... all that oration sounds like capitulation now.

        by Darwinita on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 01:45:03 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  again: are you kidding me? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          warrior0713, gde

          they are rounding up people and killing... Iraq? or doesn't that count? supporting horrible regimes that kill its citizens. no i guess that doesn't count.

          keyrist. your horror isn't any more or less horrible than the many millions killed in the last 1000 years of war. it is your horror. i respect that.

          however, we ought to stop trying to rate devastation on some kind of scale.

          it's like trying to tell a person stuck in 25 below zero weather that it's not so bad because you're in 35 below.

          “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

          by pfiore8 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 02:22:42 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your false equivalence is not my problem. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Batya the Toon, raspberryberet

            While what we did in Iraq is horrible, it does not equate to German soldiers rounding up German Jews in Germany and killing them on their home soil.

            However, since the Holocaust is just another tragedy to you, and not something that affects you personally any more than the Iraq war does, I forgive you.

            Don't fucking reply to me again.

            ... all that oration sounds like capitulation now.

            by Darwinita on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 02:39:04 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  OK (6+ / 0-)

              you don't want him to reply to you again and I'm sure you'll have the same message for me once done reading this but guess what, I don't give a fuck!

              While I generally detest the analogy often made by people and Politicians, (I've come to the conclusion that Politicians are an Alien Race), I will tell you that no matter what horrors your Family suffered or how you personally feel about the analogy there some parallels that cannot be dismissed.
              First lets consider the fact that Nazi Germany did not start out throwing Jews in ovens and concentration camps, that came later. At the time Hitler came to power the German Economy was in the toilet, people were pissed to outraged over the fact that there were no jobs and they couldn't put food on the table, that is if they had a table to put food on. That's just one thing that the Germans were pissed about, they like us had listened to one asshole after another tell them if they would just put him in Power he would make sure there was a turkey in every pot and all would be  well again. It was then and there, as it is here and now.
              Hitler's biggest weapon by far was the media which he used to very effectively to brainwash an entire Nation. Not only promising them a better life but by instilling fear in them to the point most were convinced that in order to keep their Homeland safe they would have to become the Major Superpower in the world. Sound familiar?
              Once he had gained control over the Military, Police, Media, Commodities etc. he then needed someone to blame for the problems Germany had faced pre Hitler and he needed a catalyst to keep the citizens from wanting to back out of a War that was killing hundreds of thousands of their own countrymen. Hmmm, who to pin the blame on and who to feed the fire (no pun intended) The Jews! Perfect, lets persecute the Jews. and sadly it worked all to well but I will tell you this, a huge proportion of the average citizenry during Hitlers reign had no fucking idea what was really happening in Auschwitz and other killing fields that Hitler had set up, just as most Americans have no clue what has and is continuing to happen in places like GITMO and other black Ops holding sites where people are rounded up based on their ethnicity, with no proof whatsoever that they committed a crime or had any intention of doing so but are held without bail, access to legal defense and who have been arrested contrary to every law that We as Americans hold dear and which are clearly spelled out in our Constitution.
              So, yes I can understand how this issue is very personal for you but I don't think your seeing the complete picture either. Nothing in Government happens by accident, (not counting  Anthony Weiner's Weener popping up on YouTube) it is all planned and implemented over time.

              Now, if you don't like this post then don't fucking respond to me.

              "The Liberty of Democracy is not safe if the People tolerate the growth of Private Power to a point where it becomes stronger than their Democratic State itself. That, in it's essence, is Fascism, ownership of Government by an individual or a Group" FDR

              by Kirk Welch on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 03:55:43 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  yup. (0+ / 0-)

                “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

                by pfiore8 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 03:59:34 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Sorry, but (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gsbadj, curious grandma

                Hitler didn't exactly do this thing single-handedly, no matter the control he had over the media.

                I recognize that you certainly don't mean it to sound that way, but will take this opportunity to tell that old German joke, "das war nicht ich, das war Hitler gewesen"

                "that wasn't me, that was Hitler"

                ie Hitler bore sole responsibility for the dictatorship, bigotry, concentration camps, the military industrial complex, etc etc etc and, ultimately, the Shoah.

                I'm sure that the person to whom you are responding is more than mindful that the Nazis did not leap immediately to the fully mechanized genocide, and that they passed law after law laying down the groundwork.

                Let's just note that we are all disturbed by the recognizable features of fascism in our current situation.

                It would be nice if this Ben Carson fella didn't start screaming "Nazi," too.

                Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?

                by JrCrone on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 07:01:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Are you kidding? (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                gsbadj, JrCrone, Toprow

                Is this the from the Big Pop Up Book of WWII?

                Once he had gained control over the Military, Police, Media, Commodities etc. he then needed someone to blame for the problems Germany had faced pre Hitler and he needed a catalyst to keep the citizens from wanting to back out of a War that was killing hundreds of thousands of their own countrymen. Hmmm, who to pin the blame on and who to feed the fire (no pun intended) The Jews! Perfect, lets persecute the Jews.
                The Nazis didn't assign the role of scapegoat to the Jews after they came to power-- they came to power with the aid of antisemitism. (Of course, they vilified other ethnic groups too, as well as intellectuals, socialists, and communists, but the Jews were blamed as both Bolsheviks and bankers.)

                The Nazis tapped into a long history of antisemitism that reached a fever pitch after WWI. The German people became fantastically angry at their government after the conclusion of the war in November 1918. It was not widely known how close the country was to collapse. Inexplicably to a nation that had sacrificed so much, the government had negotiated a crushing defeat while the German Army was still on French soil. The myth that the country was "stabbed in back" by the "November Criminals" wasn't created by the Nazis, but it was deftly used by them. Antisemitism was a foundation of the party.

                Claiming Hitler somehow ginned up hatred of the Jews after WWII commenced is like claiming George Wallace created racism to run for President.

                And regardless of how the Nazis began, they and their policies are now inextricably linked to the horrors that followed. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise when comparing a regime to them. It's mindless hyperbole to liken either mainstream Democrats or Republicans to them. Neither has an eliminationist platform, nor is either likely to.

                A much more valid comparison could be made between today's hyper-security state and the East German Stasi, but not the Nazis.

                •  Love this line. (0+ / 0-)
                  Is this the from the Big Pop Up Book of WWII?
                  Thank you for saying, much better, what I was trying to get at while I was shaking my head and writing my response.

                  Besides, I think that Glenn Beck has that book.

                  Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?

                  by JrCrone on Thu Mar 13, 2014 at 09:24:43 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Government of by and for large privately owned (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  raspberryberet

                  entities is the identifying characteristic of fascism.  Germany under Hitler had antisemitism.  We now have a belief that the poor are vermin to be either exterminated or at least driven out of town, plus lingering racism dating back to colonial times that we still have not really overcome.  There are some differences between Germany then and the United States now--but there is also much in common.  Both nations have scapegoats, merely picked on different ethnic groups for their scapegoats.

            •  Not equal, but very comparable (4+ / 0-)

              Nazi Germany did what it did with the support or at least consent of the vast majority of the people.  USA did the same to Iraq, with the support and consent of a super-majority of the people.  The numbers were different, millions in absolute terms, but quite comparable overall when we are talking shades of good v evil.  I am going to add the first US Holocaust, against its naive population, as it deserves to be here, both in number dead and support of the voting population.  Actually, so does the Indochina war, but that is even more complex.

              The Nazi Holocaust was roughly ten million dead, roughly half of them Jews.  Iraq dead number roughly two million or so (counting back to 1991), and more if we count the Iraq-US war against Iran (and Iraqi Kurds) when Hussein was "our man in Baghdad".  It would certainly be fair to include the dead in Iran, and Afghanistan too, and not too much of a stretch to include USSR's Afghanistan war and its aftermath, because it was deliberately incited by USA.  USA's internal Holocaust killed something like ten million.

              Survival rates vary widely between these situations.  Only about one third of the Jews in Nazi held territory survived.  In the target nations of US wars in the last several decades, survival rates were higher than 90%.  In the US internal Holocaust, survival rates were significantly lower than 10%, when we count the cumulative effect; I WAG it at 2%.

              These situations are all roughly comparable, but of course they have significant differences in details.  The similarities are more important.  What is most important in present day USA is that great evil has been done by its government, with support and consent of the vast majority of its people, and the US people have let the federal and state governments ignore the Bill of Rights that is supposed to protect them.  The key issue here is the present situation has not been corrected, and we have no idea how much more evil will be done until it is corrected.

              The only way these events cannot be considered comparable is by taking the viewpoint that Jews are the only people in the world that count: they are the ubermenschen, all others (7 billion) are untermenschen.

          •  Bad Comparison (0+ / 0-)

            I live in ND where we do actually get temps down to -35.....I've been there and it really does feel much much colder that -25.  I get your point, but the comparison wasn't a good one

        •  Rounding up the less fortunate (5+ / 0-)

          Nazi Germany rounded up the Jews. Some states have tried to pass legislation to deny rights to the unfortunate, LBGT, poor. We are only two steps behind the Nazis in that regard.

        •  Hey wait a minute (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          curious grandma, chrisculpepper

          It wasn't like that from the get-go in Germany, something led to the round up of people. Well this is what it was like before they started rounding up the people. Are you waiting till then before you recognize the signals?

    •  I believe he means prior to the ovens (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      chrisculpepper

      And I agree with him. Sadly Democrats (of which I used to be) are interesting to observe right now. They have their guy in the Oval Office so they turn a blind eye much of the time. He's very well spoken and looks great in a suit. GWB dropped the bar down low. But it is now the Democrats who aren't "getting it".  Obama has not helped them, he's used them. He hasn't helped the blacks or the poor or the middle class. He's done great guns for Monsanto, the banks and the ammunition industry.  How much can Democrats take - Obama runs a drone war for crying out loud. Is that not unacceptable enough?

      •  So you are saying that Obama is just as bad as (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KJB Oregon, raspberryberet

        Bush II?  Or Mitt?  And if you cannot vote for someone who you TOTALLY agree with, you will let Bush II types start more full scale wars (vs Obama stopping them)?  And let insurance companies totally run health insurance with no government requirements about dropping sick people?  And cut taxes for the rich even more (vs Obama increasing them)?  
        Ah but the US tries to kill a few terrorists using drones so Obama is BAAAAAD

        •  Stop wars? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          chrisculpepper

          Bush2 continued two wars started by previous Presidents.  These wars were being conducted at a low level, but they were still going on, Bush2 increased the intensity greatly.

          Obama continued the hottest two Bush wars.  He eventually greatly lowered the intensity of one of them, but he did not stop them.  He was the most active Pres in the war against Libya.  The drone wars have expanded the geographic scope of US wars.

          On civil liberties, Obama kept everything the Bushes and others did to restrict them, and went further.

          As to who is a terrorist, who is a counter-terrorist, and who is neither, you have a lot to learn.

          •  a lot to learn??? (0+ / 0-)

            I understand you only noticing the attempted genocide of the indians. not just the american indians but indians throughout the Americas. this number (causation, the western european) is triple the number of the holocaust. included in this number is the action by jewish slave owners and merchants. how quickly they forgot when they had the power to affect change in this matter. these jews supported the death of millions of other "minorities" by their participation and silence. It must be noted that the jewish supported civil rights movement with their lives and finance more often than not.

            lack of courage? i think not . love of power through money is on point. at this very moment israel has a population imprisoned, being killed, women raped by jewish rightwingers, attacked by the president, prime minister and members of the knesset male and female. Benjamin Netanyahu, the first PM that was born in israel, has called these people infiltrators and bragged that 'the infiltrators has been stopped and will be stopped in the future'.  this attitude by the jewish people , (mostly the younger people) seems to forget that most of their parents and grandparents came to israel from another country that allowed them to stay with the protection of the law. this flies in the face of 'israel is for jews only.'
            the majority of jewish rabbis declare 'according to jewish religion israel is for the jews only' but it is a backlash against the black jews and immigrants that is as bad as the 1950's southern america.
            the sad part about this racist behavior is the press in the US and the lack of coverage, but the mis-treatment of lgbt in africa get weeks of mild coverage. israel receives +- 3 billion dollars from the US each year. if this occurred in any other country the US would be putting pressure, (openly) on that country and a loud cry would be heard from several groups that monitors human rights.
            this institutional racism is kept secret by our country and that is the greatest insult by our press. BTW this has been going on for over 40 years.

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