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View Diary: Conservative hero Ben Carson says U.S. is 'very much like Nazi Germany' (221 comments)

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  •  Your false equivalence is not my problem. (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Batya the Toon, raspberryberet

    While what we did in Iraq is horrible, it does not equate to German soldiers rounding up German Jews in Germany and killing them on their home soil.

    However, since the Holocaust is just another tragedy to you, and not something that affects you personally any more than the Iraq war does, I forgive you.

    Don't fucking reply to me again.

    ... all that oration sounds like capitulation now.

    by Darwinita on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 02:39:04 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  OK (6+ / 0-)

      you don't want him to reply to you again and I'm sure you'll have the same message for me once done reading this but guess what, I don't give a fuck!

      While I generally detest the analogy often made by people and Politicians, (I've come to the conclusion that Politicians are an Alien Race), I will tell you that no matter what horrors your Family suffered or how you personally feel about the analogy there some parallels that cannot be dismissed.
      First lets consider the fact that Nazi Germany did not start out throwing Jews in ovens and concentration camps, that came later. At the time Hitler came to power the German Economy was in the toilet, people were pissed to outraged over the fact that there were no jobs and they couldn't put food on the table, that is if they had a table to put food on. That's just one thing that the Germans were pissed about, they like us had listened to one asshole after another tell them if they would just put him in Power he would make sure there was a turkey in every pot and all would be  well again. It was then and there, as it is here and now.
      Hitler's biggest weapon by far was the media which he used to very effectively to brainwash an entire Nation. Not only promising them a better life but by instilling fear in them to the point most were convinced that in order to keep their Homeland safe they would have to become the Major Superpower in the world. Sound familiar?
      Once he had gained control over the Military, Police, Media, Commodities etc. he then needed someone to blame for the problems Germany had faced pre Hitler and he needed a catalyst to keep the citizens from wanting to back out of a War that was killing hundreds of thousands of their own countrymen. Hmmm, who to pin the blame on and who to feed the fire (no pun intended) The Jews! Perfect, lets persecute the Jews. and sadly it worked all to well but I will tell you this, a huge proportion of the average citizenry during Hitlers reign had no fucking idea what was really happening in Auschwitz and other killing fields that Hitler had set up, just as most Americans have no clue what has and is continuing to happen in places like GITMO and other black Ops holding sites where people are rounded up based on their ethnicity, with no proof whatsoever that they committed a crime or had any intention of doing so but are held without bail, access to legal defense and who have been arrested contrary to every law that We as Americans hold dear and which are clearly spelled out in our Constitution.
      So, yes I can understand how this issue is very personal for you but I don't think your seeing the complete picture either. Nothing in Government happens by accident, (not counting  Anthony Weiner's Weener popping up on YouTube) it is all planned and implemented over time.

      Now, if you don't like this post then don't fucking respond to me.

      "The Liberty of Democracy is not safe if the People tolerate the growth of Private Power to a point where it becomes stronger than their Democratic State itself. That, in it's essence, is Fascism, ownership of Government by an individual or a Group" FDR

      by Kirk Welch on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 03:55:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yup. (0+ / 0-)

        “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” Buckminster Fuller

        by pfiore8 on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 03:59:34 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Sorry, but (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gsbadj, curious grandma

        Hitler didn't exactly do this thing single-handedly, no matter the control he had over the media.

        I recognize that you certainly don't mean it to sound that way, but will take this opportunity to tell that old German joke, "das war nicht ich, das war Hitler gewesen"

        "that wasn't me, that was Hitler"

        ie Hitler bore sole responsibility for the dictatorship, bigotry, concentration camps, the military industrial complex, etc etc etc and, ultimately, the Shoah.

        I'm sure that the person to whom you are responding is more than mindful that the Nazis did not leap immediately to the fully mechanized genocide, and that they passed law after law laying down the groundwork.

        Let's just note that we are all disturbed by the recognizable features of fascism in our current situation.

        It would be nice if this Ben Carson fella didn't start screaming "Nazi," too.

        Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?

        by JrCrone on Wed Mar 12, 2014 at 07:01:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Are you kidding? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gsbadj, JrCrone, Toprow

        Is this the from the Big Pop Up Book of WWII?

        Once he had gained control over the Military, Police, Media, Commodities etc. he then needed someone to blame for the problems Germany had faced pre Hitler and he needed a catalyst to keep the citizens from wanting to back out of a War that was killing hundreds of thousands of their own countrymen. Hmmm, who to pin the blame on and who to feed the fire (no pun intended) The Jews! Perfect, lets persecute the Jews.
        The Nazis didn't assign the role of scapegoat to the Jews after they came to power-- they came to power with the aid of antisemitism. (Of course, they vilified other ethnic groups too, as well as intellectuals, socialists, and communists, but the Jews were blamed as both Bolsheviks and bankers.)

        The Nazis tapped into a long history of antisemitism that reached a fever pitch after WWI. The German people became fantastically angry at their government after the conclusion of the war in November 1918. It was not widely known how close the country was to collapse. Inexplicably to a nation that had sacrificed so much, the government had negotiated a crushing defeat while the German Army was still on French soil. The myth that the country was "stabbed in back" by the "November Criminals" wasn't created by the Nazis, but it was deftly used by them. Antisemitism was a foundation of the party.

        Claiming Hitler somehow ginned up hatred of the Jews after WWII commenced is like claiming George Wallace created racism to run for President.

        And regardless of how the Nazis began, they and their policies are now inextricably linked to the horrors that followed. It's disingenuous to claim otherwise when comparing a regime to them. It's mindless hyperbole to liken either mainstream Democrats or Republicans to them. Neither has an eliminationist platform, nor is either likely to.

        A much more valid comparison could be made between today's hyper-security state and the East German Stasi, but not the Nazis.

        •  Love this line. (0+ / 0-)
          Is this the from the Big Pop Up Book of WWII?
          Thank you for saying, much better, what I was trying to get at while I was shaking my head and writing my response.

          Besides, I think that Glenn Beck has that book.

          Darling, you didn't use canned salmon, did you?

          by JrCrone on Thu Mar 13, 2014 at 09:24:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Government of by and for large privately owned (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          raspberryberet

          entities is the identifying characteristic of fascism.  Germany under Hitler had antisemitism.  We now have a belief that the poor are vermin to be either exterminated or at least driven out of town, plus lingering racism dating back to colonial times that we still have not really overcome.  There are some differences between Germany then and the United States now--but there is also much in common.  Both nations have scapegoats, merely picked on different ethnic groups for their scapegoats.

    •  Not equal, but very comparable (4+ / 0-)

      Nazi Germany did what it did with the support or at least consent of the vast majority of the people.  USA did the same to Iraq, with the support and consent of a super-majority of the people.  The numbers were different, millions in absolute terms, but quite comparable overall when we are talking shades of good v evil.  I am going to add the first US Holocaust, against its naive population, as it deserves to be here, both in number dead and support of the voting population.  Actually, so does the Indochina war, but that is even more complex.

      The Nazi Holocaust was roughly ten million dead, roughly half of them Jews.  Iraq dead number roughly two million or so (counting back to 1991), and more if we count the Iraq-US war against Iran (and Iraqi Kurds) when Hussein was "our man in Baghdad".  It would certainly be fair to include the dead in Iran, and Afghanistan too, and not too much of a stretch to include USSR's Afghanistan war and its aftermath, because it was deliberately incited by USA.  USA's internal Holocaust killed something like ten million.

      Survival rates vary widely between these situations.  Only about one third of the Jews in Nazi held territory survived.  In the target nations of US wars in the last several decades, survival rates were higher than 90%.  In the US internal Holocaust, survival rates were significantly lower than 10%, when we count the cumulative effect; I WAG it at 2%.

      These situations are all roughly comparable, but of course they have significant differences in details.  The similarities are more important.  What is most important in present day USA is that great evil has been done by its government, with support and consent of the vast majority of its people, and the US people have let the federal and state governments ignore the Bill of Rights that is supposed to protect them.  The key issue here is the present situation has not been corrected, and we have no idea how much more evil will be done until it is corrected.

      The only way these events cannot be considered comparable is by taking the viewpoint that Jews are the only people in the world that count: they are the ubermenschen, all others (7 billion) are untermenschen.

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