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View Diary: Markos, “Why Are YOU Here?” (776 comments)

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  •  You can't make your argument without putting (14+ / 0-)

    words in kos' mouth. That means your argument is weak.

    But let's assume for the sake of argument that kos believes what you say he does. Why does that make you feel so persecuted? Honestly? Instead of endeavoring to craft a rigorous counter argument that doesn't put words in anyone's mouth, you whine that the mere statement of his beliefs makes him an authoritarian that will brook no dissent.

    That's bullshit.

    •  Nobody put these words in anyone's mouth... (32+ / 0-)
      So in practical terms, what does a Libertarian Dem look like? A Libertarian Dem rejects government efforts to intrude in our bedrooms and churches. A Libertarian Dem rejects government "Big Brother" efforts, such as the NSA spying of tens of millions of Americans. A Libertarian Dem rejects efforts to strip away rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights -- from the First Amendment to the 10th. And yes, that includes the 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms…
      They got there all on their own.

      'Cuz freedom can't protect itself ~~ EFF ~ EPIC ~ ACLU

      by markthshark on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 01:20:29 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I see. (5+ / 0-)

        And because you agree with those words, you think he should believe them for all time or he's an authoritarian sellout.

        No one changes their mind in your household.

        •  Of course we do.... (4+ / 0-)
          No one changes their mind in your household.
          But we're not nearly as politically-minded in my household as this community is, and even so, if a member of my family who was diametrically opposed to a particular [important] issue for years -- and then suddenly did a one-eighty -- I'm pretty sure I'd be asking for at least some sort of explanation... or one would be thoughtfully offered by that family member.

          But, perhaps that's just my household.

          'Cuz freedom can't protect itself ~~ EFF ~ EPIC ~ ACLU

          by markthshark on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 09:18:17 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But he hasn't done a 180. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            newinfluence, awesumtenor

            He thinks two things at once. Or at least that's my impression. One can be both against NSA spying, and against groundless hyperbole that suggests the NSA exists purely to conduct surveillance of progressives, for example. Objection to the latter does not negate objection to the former.

            •  Where NSA surveillance in its broad scope... (6+ / 0-)

              is concerned, saying vociferous disagreement with that [democracy-killing] policy is hyperbole or CT, is a moot point.

              And I also think it's unwise to divide critics and supporters of NSA spying along partisan lines. We're ALL Americans.

              And we're ALL being surveilled.

              'Cuz freedom can't protect itself ~~ EFF ~ EPIC ~ ACLU

              by markthshark on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 11:09:17 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  But I'm not aware that he disagrees that NSA (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                markthshark

                surveillance is a problem. I haven't been around for a while though, so I'm not sure.

                I know he said something to the effect that worrying about the government having your phone number is white privileged, or something like that, and that the belief that that represents the height of government intrusion is a belief held by privileged whites.

                Not sure if I agree or disagree with that since I'm not familiar with the context in which it was made. On its face, I'd have to say I disagree that concern with bulk surveillance is a white thing. I'm generally suspicious of such generalizations. Such a statement begs the question who is white and what is white privilege? But in the context of recent flame wars, the statement makes more sense. This site is racially polarized, that's not a secret, and I'm not aware that Edward Snowden has ever condemned stop and frisk.

                I think kos was pointing out what he perceives to be hypocrisy among those he perceives to be white at DK. That's a far cry from supporting NSA surveillance. I've seen no evidence he supports that at all. He just doesn't think it 's as big a deal as some would make it out to be.

                I have to say, I think kos is pretty even handed. When he thought certain AA posters were over the top in their criticism of those who criticized Obama, he said so. I think he was right about certain people, and I said so then. So did a lot of people who are now crying that he hates them. Seems hypocritical to me.

      •  I want to know how he knew (4+ / 0-)

        about the NSA spying back in 2006. I thought the story broke just a couple of year ago. Wild.

        •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

          He did?

          How could he know when no one else did?

          Wow.

          Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

          by felix19 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 07:07:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

            •  But but but.... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              markthshark

              sigh...

              Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

              by felix19 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 08:11:58 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  We only had part of the picture (8+ / 0-)

                in '06. Because of Snowden, we have a clearer picture of it scope. From the interview:

                What are your thoughts on the newest exposures as a result of Edward Snowden's whistleblowing?

                Snowden has revealed a much deeper and broader level of NSA penetration of the internet, the so-called PRISM program, which the documents he released show actually started in 2007 under Bush and expanded under Obama. My revelation had shown the NSA copies data as it flowed across the internet, which gives them a huge amount of everyone’s information. But what was missing was your private account data stored on servers by the various companies (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Apple, etc.), data which may not be flowing at the moment.

                I think NSA whistleblower William Binney, who as a former insider is much more knowledgeable about this (he actually designed the surveillance system before he quit in late 2001 when it was turned against the domestic population) described it precisely. He says the “dragnet” operation I revealed gives them about 80 percent of the information, but the missing piece, the 20 percent, they get from PRISM. Now they have everything, and we are all stripped naked.
                {..}
                But Congress prefers to give such immunity only to the phone companies caught in the illegal spying program: in 2008 Congress, with then-Senator Obama’s help, passed a bipartisan retroactive immunity bill at Bush’s urging, effectively killing the lawsuit against AT&T. That should tell you where Congress, and both parties, stand on this. [..]

                In 2011, it was revealed that private contractors working for the government tried to sell their illegal spying abilities to the Chamber of Commerce—information on unions included. What are your thoughts on the role of private contractors?

                It’s clear “private” contractors are all in it together with the government; in fact, sometimes the “private” contractors do stuff that the government, by law, is forbidden to do, and so they get around the law that way.

                There’s a revolving door between government officials and these companies. [..]

                And of course there’s tons of money to be made. That’s where your hard-earned tax dollars go.


                "Information is power. But like all power there are those who want to keep it for themselves" Aaron Swartz, 1986 - 2013
                TheStarsHollowGazette.com

                by TheMomCat on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 11:18:38 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  story broke in 2006 when GOP ruled (0+ / 0-)

                  So it makes sense that kos was mightily and rightly upset and angry about it. But you see things changed when Snowden came out with his information. You see Team D was in charge at that time.

                  Well the true party loyalist (hello kos) changed his tune and said.."it's bad but I don't give two shits about It or Snowden or Greenwald. Because apparently here ...IOKIYAD when your party is the one in charge when the NSA continues the invasion of privacy /spying.

                  Party before country.

                  Government of, for, and by the wealthy corporate political ruling class elites. Elizabeth Warren Progressive Wing of political spectrum.

                  by emal on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 03:52:34 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  it was a big story even earlier than that actually (12+ / 0-)

          shortly after 9/11, Ashcroft and Poindexter were involved in something called Total Information Access.  Almost a decade before the Person of Interest TV show, they proposed gathering vast quantities of information in a form of predictive policing--to detect and stop crimes before they were committed.  They claimed the data mining would only be used against terrorists, but since Bushco was fond of throwing that label around, lots of folks were concerned that it would be used against W's political opponents and personal enemies.

          Here is a letter written by Senators Leahy, Cantwell and Feingold (back when he was the darling of this blog) addressing liberal concerns about TIA and DARPA in 2003.

          The situation became more widely known when USA Today of all mass-market info sources published an investigative piece (!) in the spring of 2006.

          Then Frontline pulled all the pieces together in a 2007 documentary that scared the crap out of me called Spying on the Home Front.  Skip to section 3 to see the part about NSA driftnets and mass collection of phone, email and other internet data with the cooperation of AT&T (and presumably other phone companies).  Complete with John Yoo making excuses for W.  Stomach-turning stuff.

          So yeah, one reason why I and others did not freak out about Snowden as much as people thought we should, is that it was old news to us.  Mark Klein is more of a whistleblower hero in my eyes.

          It is important to keep people aware of NSA domestic spying, and it is still a project I disapprove of strongly.  But Snowden's info was only a revelation to people who had not been paying close attention during the Bush years.

          Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
          DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
          Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

          by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 07:56:47 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  But that would be the majority of citizens (0+ / 0-)
            But Snowden's info was only a revelation to people who had not been paying close attention during the Bush years.
            What every (or near) citizen knows has an effect in Democracy. What a relative handful of close readers of events know might, or might not, one day have an effect.

            Different order of magnitudes matter.


            Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

            by Jim P on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 09:04:05 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  true, it was news to the majority of citizens (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              felix19, sunbro

              but i wasn't talking about them, i was referring to the reaction of people at dK who have been shocked that everyone else isn't as shocked as they are

              NSA spying is very bad, but in 2013 it was not new news

              Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
              DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
              Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

              by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 10:19:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  What matters? That the 'cognoscenti" knew before (4+ / 0-)

                everyone else (which includes a very vocal and persistant contingent here at DKos which called it 'conspiracy theory'), or that people who knew could now establish without question, even among the CT shouters, that such was the case?

                Urging action which before was not politically likely to succeed, and something necessary to a healthy politics, but which now could possibly succeed?

                Are you saying that because some knew something, when it is confirmed, then that's the right time to shut up about it? Instead of pressing advantage?

                That would certainly be our Conventional Dem Centrist Wisdoom.


                Real fixes, outside the coffin fixes, ain't ever pragmatic says Political Conventional Wisdoom.

                by Jim P on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 10:44:10 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  ? (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  felix19, sunbro, middleagedhousewife
                  Are you saying that because some knew something, when it is confirmed, then that's the right time to shut up about it?
                  no, i am not.

                  it's like the situation with the body armor.  diaries were posted here for a very long time that soldiers were being issued body armor that was not working well, to the point where some family members were buying body armor to send to their loved ones in combat.

                  by the time the story broke wide, we already knew about it at dK for quite a while.

                  so it would have been weird for someone on dK to say at that point:  why aren;t you more upset about this awful thing!!!11!one!1!!

                  my answer is, I am upset, and I have been upset about it for a while, and I am not any more upset about it just because the general public is now aware of it also.  in fact, I'm glad the story is getting wider attention.  but I can;t claim or pretend to be as shocked as someone who is finding out about it for the first time, nor do I give any special hero credit to the person who broke the story wider.  I'm glad he got noticed, but the real heroes are the ones who originally brought the problem to light.

                  i'm not aware of anyone calling NSA spying a conspiracy theory though.  you lost me there.  kos certainly never said it, since he knew about it a long time ago, and he is the final arbiter of what is or is not CT around here

                  Politics is like driving. To go backward put it in R. To go forward put it in D.
                  DEMAND CREATES JOBS!!!
                  Drop by The Grieving Room on Monday nights to talk about grief.

                  by TrueBlueMajority on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 11:09:20 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  There was knowledge (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Johnny Q

                    available, though it wasn't as widespread and detailed as it has become.

                    There was plenty of outrage, too, though it wasn't as hyperbolic as it has become.

                    The issue, though, is that it was no more possible then than it is now to do anything directly and substantive about domestic surveillance -- let alone international spying.

                    Americans have to learn to be indirect and subtle in their resistance, much as Soviet citizens and East Germans (among so many others) did and are doing.

                    The surveillance apparat is intricately layered, too, so that eliminating (say) the NSA layer (which isn't gonna happen) would do little to curb the apparatus as a whole -- for most domestic surveillance purposes, it wouldn't even be noticed.

                    Yes, of course Markos knew about NSA surveillance in 2006; so did a lot of others. Lots of folks knew about COINTELPRO before it was officially revealed, too.

                    They knew because they felt its effects every day.

                    Just like we do.

                    Blogging as Ché Pasa since 2007.

                    by felix19 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 12:04:42 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  That story broke around the same time. (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Yasuragi, poco, sunbro

          In 2006. That's when we first learned of bulk surveillance.

        •  Oh please. Democrats were righteously furious... (0+ / 0-)

          There was almost universal condemnation of the Bush Admin's surveillance program among Democrats. It's only now (when our guy's the head man) that we see how the issue is so nuanced, or inconsequential, that we can't even agree that it's a disgrace and a threat worth fighting.

    •  Oh that is correct.... (18+ / 0-)

      ...people who object to the conventional wisdom here have to present airtight arguments or be called whiners and saying 'the mere statement of his beliefs' of the site owner has the same import as the rest of the posters here is disingenuous at best.

      I note you also don't hold the diary written by your friend Denise, and endorsed by Kos, to that same standard of rigor.  Being a professor it should be easy for her.

      And in regards to dissent what if I posted even a mild comment about  the futility of war in an IGTNT diary.  What would happen.   And being told my concerns about the NSA and government overreach is just not an issue, or white privilege, might lead someone to think he is not wanted here not to mention the content of his last diary and the one he endorsed.   Being told to STFU until after an election also kind of pisses me off since there is always an election.

      But maybe this place is no longer for me anymore.  That is the implication in your comment isn't it, or am I just putting words in your mouth and whining agin.

      We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

      by delver rootnose on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 01:29:58 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You're doing it again. (17+ / 0-)

        Who told you what to say and what not to say? Seriously?  Who told you to STFU, and why did you listen? I understand why you're upset now. You think that when someone disagrees with you, that you are being told in essence to shut your mouth.

        If I were so full of myself that I mistook spirited disagreement with an authoritarian plot to silence me, I'd be pissed too.

      •  would you mind explaining (14+ / 0-)

        "your friend Denise" directed at fou?

        fou was here before I got here.  Have never met her.  Have rec'ed some of her comments. Just did.  

        We are both members of some of the same "communities" here on DKos, and others - not.

        Thinking back over thousands of comments I've read here - I think there have been some things I've disagreed with fou on - perhaps less disagreement than agreement but if I'm simply curious as to why you've singled out fou as "Denise's friend" - there are a few people on this blog who are actual f-2-f friends of mine - who I knew before coming here - I can think of two right now.  

        Others I know better now due to regular interaction in a broad cross-section of diaries.  

        Add in a few more people who I didn't know in real life
        but vis-a-vis comments over time we have found we have a shared history in several movements or even went to the same High School.

        Still others were friendships formed meeting at several NNs'.

        There are people here I disagree with too, more often than not - a few are also members of communities I'm a member of.

        So - I'm requesting you clarify that remark.

        "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition." Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon

        by Denise Oliver Velez on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 08:00:52 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Hey Sis! (8+ / 0-)

          It's true we don't know each other that well. I'd say we're more like acquaintances. But it's no secret that I have a lot of respect for your work.

          I'm proud to have rec'd the diary that started all this off. That diary was rec'd by a broad cross section of this community. Many recommenders have a long history of being sharply critical of Democrats and this administration, but apparently that's lost on the terminally butthurt.

        •  I've seen this "smear" used a billion times (13+ / 0-)

          or so this past few days, to be honest, toward various people.

          Apparently you have a lot of friends!

          They were trying to get you kicked off the FP, failed, and are angry about it, so now anyone who has ever talked to you or the Black Kos, or has any sort of general ideological support for you or your goals is "the enemy" also to be well... kicked out. Or just kicked, metaphorically.

          The disdainful term "Professor" is all the more messed up. Anti-intellectualism at its finest.

          Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

          by mahakali overdrive on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 09:22:05 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  oh well Sis MO (8+ / 0-)

            it would be nice if the "Professor" thingee actually earned me a living wage. Just got my adjunct "paycheck" (lol) - I'd be below the poverty line, if I was single, since I bring home under 8K a year... I wish posting to the fp, or being one of the editors of BKos had a salary attached.

            So whether or not calling me Professor has barbs attached I can't eat a title.  

            I thank goddess for my husband who does earn a living wage - though not a whole lot.  

            People who read or are members of BKos - as you know - are majority white, and have a range of political views. The followers number 740 atm - the community members span the spectrum too - including one white admin and one white editor.  

            Shrug. Whatever narrative is woven depends on the pov of the weaver.  I have my perspective, some folks have opposing views depending on the issue.

            Do some people want me not to post to the fp - sure - they've stated that.  Others don't seem to mind at all.
            Still others have been very supportive readers.  It's a matter of taste.

            I don't read everything on the fp -  I tend to read diaries in my "stream".  

            The only people here who do read everything are the rescue rangers - kudos to them for what they do.

            Good morning (still) your time - afternoon here.

            Sorry for the meadering response.  I better go get more coffee.

            "If you're in a coalition and you're comfortable, you know it's not a broad enough coalition." Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon

            by Denise Oliver Velez on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 10:10:55 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  You know that ivory tower (5+ / 0-)

              all too well ;)

              I was making 6K per year a few back. I'm now teaching full-time (4 classes) plus have an admin-job that is p/t, and I will make 25K this year, which in an area where the cost of living for a family of 3 is 60K per year at the low end, isn't much.

              And being on this kind of course load, with this many new preps, and an admin job which requires overseeing thousands of students, a separate office, an assistant, and other faculty, sorry but I feel like I ought to be compensated a wee bit more since this is what pre-school teachers make in my area.

              But I'm not going to complain. At least my husband's job finally puts us now into the cost-of-living bracket, and I'm using the money to save for my son's college fund religiously; I was getting really, really, really nervous about that. I still have a twenty year old car though, and we still cannot afford to buy a house, although we're finally out of living paycheck-to-paycheck, and it took five years to get here, but it feels good.

              I am disgusted by the myths. All of them. The anti-intellectualism as well as the "Denise is a big authoritarian" one. Neener-neener-neener! Ugh. And some of the people casting stones are quite well-off, but many could probably stand a bit more education to be fair.

              What a ridiculous battle to wage. And I don't blame you one bit for venting; I just was working too hard to have caught it. It's spring break right now... thus my avoiding a few hundred papers I have to grade, but naturally, by posting here! <3

              Click the ♥ to join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news & views written from a black pov - everyone is welcome.

              by mahakali overdrive on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 10:59:28 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  ROTFL "trying to get you kicked off FP (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            emal

            and are angry about it"

            Sure once I was young and impulsive, I wore every conceivable pin. Even went to socialist meetings, learned all the old union hymns. Ah, but I've grown older and wiser. And that's why I'm turning you in. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u52Oz-54VYw

            by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 12:48:39 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  I swear (0+ / 0-)

            It's like high school here sometimes. Apparently, Markos and Denise together are "The Man," and anyone who agrees with anything they say are just brown nosers.

            Time is of no account with great thoughts, which are as fresh to-day as when they first passed through their authors' minds ages ago. - Samuel Smiles

            by moviemeister76 on Sat Mar 15, 2014 at 06:39:15 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  you really don't like Denise, do you? (3+ / 0-)

        For fuck sake. The hate here amongst some really runs deep. I'm starting to think Markos is right. Way too many miserable people here.

        KOS: "Mocking partisans focusing on elections? Even less reason to be on Daily Kos."

        by fcvaguy on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 07:17:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I don't hate Denise.. (0+ / 0-)

          ...but go ahead and convince yourself of that if you want.

          Most of the time I like what she writes.  Other times I ignore it.

          But what she wrote the other day was completely antithetical to this website, or at least what I thought this website was about, and that kos agreed with her was downright depressing.

          But go ahead label me a hater and a miserable person.  It is easier for you that way.  It is so much easier to characterize my objection to what she said with a personal dislike for her.

          We Glory in war, in the shedding of human blood. What fools we are.

          by delver rootnose on Sun Mar 16, 2014 at 09:03:55 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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