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View Diary: Putin Propagandist Threatens US with Nuclear Annihilation over Ukraine (182 comments)

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  •  Nothing (8+ / 0-)

    Personally, I think we should let a dumb communist decision from 1954 be undone.  Crimea is Russian, not Ukrainian.

    The people of Crimea voted, I think we should respect that vote.

    •  Except the process was rigged. (14+ / 0-)

      The elections were marred by boycotts and there were Russian soldiers and "self-defense" forces in the streets. If that is not voter intimidation, I want to know what is.

      "The cost of liberty is less than the price of repression." - W.E.B. Du Bois Be informed. Fight the Police State.

      by Eternal Hope on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 06:29:32 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  They report that "96.7%" of the Crimeans (19+ / 0-)

        voted to merge with Russia.  Sure.  Obviously it was as rigged as any election in history.

        But Norm says

        The people of Crimea voted, I think we should respect that vote.
        That's really gagworthy.
        •  Well...it's not that cut and dry..... (5+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          aimeehs, marsanges, ER Doc, ColoTim, ArthurPoet
          At first glance, the scene at the polling station at Simferopol's High School Number Nine looked little different to a routine local election in England. The queues outside the school were orderly, and there was no sign of intimidation. Nor, however, was there much in the way of real choice on the ballot paper.

          Option one was to reunify with Russia. Option two was to declare de facto independence from the rest of Ukraine. Option three – to remain as part of Ukraine as before – did not have a box.

          Perhaps not surprisingly, therefore, most of those who turned out to vote yesterday were firmly in favour of the options for which there was a box to tick.

          and.....
          The turnout in Crimea’s referendum on the future of the peninsula reached 44.27 % of those eligible to vote
          Not a great percentage given the two choices to vote on -

          If the number is accurate and 44.27% voted - there's a problem with the results.

          The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

          by ctexrep on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 08:07:38 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  If you don't vote, you don't count (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          hassanm

          Why did people boycott the vote?  Makes no sense to just stay home and not be counted.  Especially if you're claiming they were the majority.

          Do you claim every US election is illegitimate when the number of people staying home is greater than those who vote?

          •  They didn't have option to vote for staying with (7+ / 0-)

            Ukraine...
            they could vote to Leave Ukraine and join russia
            or leave Ukraine and be independent state.
            all of their energy is imported, even electricity
            and so on.

            Let's say we had a choice of voting for rick sanatorium or herman cain. Would you go vote?

            •  No one owns a pen? (0+ / 0-)

              If my choice was Santorum or Cain, I wouldn't just stay home and pout and refuse to vote, thinking that somehow gave me a noble legitimacy.

              Instead, I would take a pen, and write in the candidate of my choice.  And I would convince others to do the same.

              But there was a choice.  To join Russia or not join Russia.  If the vote for independent state had won, they could have decided later to not actually leave Ukraine.

              •  We have write-in boxes on our ballots. (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Timaeus, ColoTim, ArthurPoet, Lawrence

                The Ukrainians didn't.

                There was no option for them to vote against secession.

                Art is the handmaid of human good.

                by joe from Lowell on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:55:37 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Fine, but look (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm living in Illinois.  Say Canada decides that Chicago is really part of Canada, since it's on the Great Lakes.  And we get a vote that says:

                  A)  Secede from the US and become part of Canada
                  B)  Secede from the US and become and independent state.

                  Well, I'd rather be an independent state than part of Canada.  And an independent state has the ability to do things, like not secede at all at the end of the day.

                  Makes a hell of a lot more sense than to just stay home and pout, and then say I had no voice.

                  •  Are you for real? (0+ / 0-)

                    Ukraine never agreed to this referendum that Putin created.  So what's the mechanism for implementing the results of either option on the ballot?  Russian military force, that's what.  Both the "independence" and "annexation" options are to be implemented via Russian invasion, which has already occurred.

                    The Putin apologists should at least now propose a legitimate way to implement the annexation.  The way I see it, Putin should now offer to buy Crimea for trillions of dollars.  It would still be outrageous since Ukraine would have to accept the offer at the point of a gun, but Putin could at least claim he gave Ukraine due compensation.

                    •  Crimea never agreed to be traded to Ukraine (0+ / 0-)

                      How would you like it if one day you woke up to find out that your state had just been given to either Canada or Mexico?  No vote, no say in the matter, just done, traded away like a baseball card.

                      And due compensation?  For what?  Ukraine didn't buy Crimea in the first place.  So what do they need to be compensated for?

                      Why is some politician in Kiev entitled to the wealth production of the people of Crimea because of a 1954 Soviet communist decision?  How does that make any sense?

                      Ukraine didn't buy Crimea, so it can't sell Crimea.

              •  Actually, given those choices (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ColoTim

                most people in this country would like go 'meh' and stay home.

                It's the very, very rare election that has a write-in candidate win. And even then, they have to be really well known, and probably the incumbent who didn't get on the ballot for some reason (Lisa Murkowski comes to mind).

                •  And just like in this country... (0+ / 0-)

                  The people who say 'meh' get what's given to them, and what they think doesn't matter.  Because they said 'meh'.  That was their vote.

                  But did you see my post on Hawaii?  What of the 65% of Hawaiian voters who said 'meh' on the Statehood question.  Does that mean Hawaii isn't a state?

                •  The incumbent (remain with Ukraine) wasn't on (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Norm in Chicago, auron renouille

                  this ballot, so people had no effective opportunity to write-in that choice.

                  •  You don't see that as a follow-up? (0+ / 0-)

                    This election was about one thing:  Accept Russia, or reject Russia.  A vote for independence can always later become a vote to stay with Ukraine.

                    A vote to join Russia only has one interpretation, and that's what won.

                    Those who stayed home should have voted for independence if they had the greater numbers.  Never EVER stay home and pout.

                    •  No - for the vote to have hoped to be valid, they (3+ / 0-)

                      needed a choice to remain right where they were.  

                    •  No, the vote "accept Russia now or later." nt. (0+ / 0-)

                      There was no option to politely decline the occupation troops.

                      Are you really so jaded that you can't see a sham election when it's right in front of your eyes?

                      "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

                      by auron renouille on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:26:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I just don't really care (0+ / 0-)

                        Crimea used to be part of Russia until it was traded to Ukraine through internal Soviet politics.  With the collapse of the Soviet Union, I just don't see why anything that happened during Soviet times is sacred.  It was Russia and it still is Russia.  Why do you say it has to be Ukranian.

                        As I also posted, the Hawaiian vote for Statehood was also a sham election.  We were never going to leave Pearl Harbor.  So it was accept the US now, or later for Hawaii also.

                        If Crimea can't be a part of Russia, than Hawaii isn't a state, and Obama isn't our President.  Try and be consistent about these things.

                •  I encourage people to vote in every election here, (0+ / 0-)

                  however small, but that election was such a farce that I think a boycott was the only plausible response to it.  It's not at all the same as picking the least-bad option for a representative - the simple act of voting legitimizes secession, and the only way to oppose secession and support the status quo was to not vote.

                  "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

                  by auron renouille on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:24:32 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  99%, 55%, who cares? (8+ / 0-)

        Our diplomacy shouldn't be with Russia, it should be with Ukraine.  Get them to accept it and make them a Western client state, which is what a majority of Ukrainians want at this point, probably with more fervor than a couple of weeks ago.

        It's not the side effects of the cocaine/I'm thinking that it must be love

        by Rich in PA on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 06:36:34 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  So we should encourage (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        BradMajors

        a do over?  This time with monitors?  expect a different outcome?

        •  Yes to the first two questions. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          middleagedhousewife, marsanges

          I'm not concerned about the outcome; I'm concerned about the process.

          "The cost of liberty is less than the price of repression." - W.E.B. Du Bois Be informed. Fight the Police State.

          by Eternal Hope on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 06:47:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  How long do British elections take? (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ER Doc, ColoTim

          Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand have a lot of experience with prime ministers calling for elections when conditions favor them, yet I think it still takes a month for them to straighten things out.

          For Russians in Crimea to call for an election in 2 weeks, when their system hasn't had a history of regular elections is a sure indication that they don't want an honest election.

          Freedom's just another word for not enough to eat. --Paul Krugman's characterization of conservative attitudes.

          by Judge Moonbox on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:28:06 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  No. Ukraine never agreed to a referendum on (0+ / 0-)

          the question of relinquishing one of its provinces.  Ukraine has not agreed to abide by the results of such a referendum.  It's not our business to encourage a do over of a referendum administered by a foreign military force that the host nation hasn't agreed to.

          Only after Ukraine agreed to a referendum should we support do overs with monitors or whatever.

      •  and Norm and other squeal (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        joe from Lowell, auron renouille

        if people are made to wait in line to vote here.

        sheesh.

      •  Is Hawaii not a real US state? (4+ / 0-)
        By a letter of September 17, 1959, after a statehood vote in Hawaii with 94 percent approval(of the 35% of eligible voters; there were a total of 133,000 votes for annexation out of a eligible voting population of 382,000 [1]),
        The acceptance of statehood for Hawaii was not without its share of controversy. Many Native Hawaiians in Hawaii protested against statehood.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        Also, don't forget that Hawaii was heavily occupied by the US Military.  If the native Hawaiians had rejected US statehood and ordered all military personnel to abandon the naval base at Pearl Harbor, just what exactly do you think would have happened?  The navy would have just packed up and left?

        Russia has more claim to Crimea than we do to Hawaii.  And the vote looks pretty similar yes?  Only 35% of eligible voters?  You sure that wasn't rigged as well, marred by US soldiers all over Honolulu?

        •  That vote was different from what happened in (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Norm in Chicago, auron renouille

          Crimea.  
          1.  The vote was not to leave one country and go with another.  Hawaii was considered by the whole world (UN, US and every other country) a non-self-governing country and it had been that way for a couple of generations.
          2.  They apparently had the option of voting "no".  The Crimeans had two choices for independence - none for remaining Ukrainians.
          3.  While there were many non-native people on the islands, per your Wiki article most were Asian, not American.  In the Crimea, many of the native populations (Tatars, especially) have been forcefully relocated out of their homeland and replaced by ethnic Russians.  That's more like if the Hawaiians had been relocated from Hawaii and only the Americans were allowed to vote.
          4.  Even had Hawaii voted "no" there would not have been any forced expulsion of American forces.  The Hawaiians apparently did not feel that level of antipathy to the US, which had provided defense just a few years before during World War II and which provided a great amount of economic income to the islands.  Again, from the article, the Hawaiians did it more to join America and cease their territory status so that they weren't governed by the rising Asian interests.

          I don't see any really good analogies with your point.  I mean, look at Puerto Rico - they have been allowed self-determination but under a special relationship with the US and they haven't been forced to submit to US statehood.  They could vote to become a state at any time and then petition Congress, but they haven't chosen that route and the US hasn't made them.  

          •  So Hawaii benefitted from Pearl Harbor so.... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ColoTim

            So really, there was no military occupation of Hawaii because:

            -Hawaiians didn't really count as a people and had no capacity to self govern (decided by a bunch of old white men in the 40's)

            -It's not a military occupation if the people welcome it and benefit from it economically.  And the Americans weren't leaving anyway, so never mind that.

            -Hawaiians joined the US so they wouldn't be fought over and passed back and forth like a territory in RISK.

            -A majority Asian immigrant population that swings the vote is nothing at all like having natives deported to swing the vote.

            And you see no similarities between Hawaii and Crimea at all?  It looks to me like they see lots of benefit in being Russia's Pearl Harbor on the Black Sea.
            Also, Crimea never voted to become part of Ukraine in the first place, that was a communist Soviet Union decision.  So why should that be the default?

            •  Having not been alive yet and not having read (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Norm in Chicago

              deeply on the subject over the years, I don't believe that Hawaii and the Crimea are the same, but I guess I can see your point of view.  If you start with the premise that Hawaii was a military occupied country, then the rest of your ideas can flow from that.  I don't see Hawaii as quite that subjugated, but I will allow that the native Hawaiians may have felt differently.  I will stop trying to put words and thoughts in their mouths.

            •  Hawaiians didn't "join" the U.S. The islands ... (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Gordon20024, Norm in Chicago

              ...were taken. Hawaii's previously independent Republic dismantled. It territorial government was established in 1900. Sixty-one years later, Hawaiians voted, but without the choice of again becoming independent.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:20:54 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So Crimea actually got a better vote than Hawaii (0+ / 0-)

                Crimea's vote had the option of joining Russia, or being independent.  Hawaii had the choice of becoming a state, or remaining a military occupied territory forever.  Because we were never leaving Pearl Harbor.

                so explain to me again why we're supposed to go to war over, or even care about, Crimea?

        •  Shhhh.... Do as we say, not as we do.... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Norm in Chicago
        •  Cokie Roberts says Hawaii is a foreign country. (0+ / 0-)

          Some birthers might agree with her.

      •  With 110% of the Votes Counted: (4+ / 0-)

        Favoring Annexation by Russia -- 96.7%
        Not Favoring Annexation -- n/a

        "A famous person once said, 'You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time.' But as I once said, "If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like." – Max Headroom

        by midnight lurker on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:28:44 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And it wasn't even a real vote - it boiled down to (0+ / 0-)

        "Annexation now" or "Autonomy now," with the latter widely understood to carry the same result - autonomy followed by annexation.  There was no choice to retain the status quo.

        "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

        by auron renouille on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:22:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  The referendum was an obvious frame-up. (6+ / 0-)

      Look, we need to face reality and acknowledge that Russia is going to keep Ukraine. It would be insane to try to roll them back.

      But that doesn't mean we have to give such a naked act of aggression moral and political cover.

      Art is the handmaid of human good.

      by joe from Lowell on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 06:47:08 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  So its cool if large, (9+ / 0-)

      powerful countries snatch pieces of their neighbors because they have the military strength to do so???

      Not a recipe for a peaceful world. This invasion and occupation also teaches smaller countries that they must have nuclear weapons to protect themselves. This Crimean invasion never would have happened if Ukraine had not agreed to scrap its enormous nuclear arsenal in return for guarantees from the US and Russia.

      Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

      by OIL GUY on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 06:49:44 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  It's also okay if at least one small (4+ / 0-)

        but immensely powerful country does so.  

        You know which one.

        Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

        by corvo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:08:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The principle of self determination (5+ / 0-)

          is sacrosanct, but also situational.  

          •  yes indeed. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            bobdevo, ColoTim, Johnny Q

            if you're a Kosovar: yaaayyyy!  
            if you're a Kurd: maybe, if you're in the right place at the right time, but your self-determination can be revoked at any time when convenient to us.
            if you're a Tibetan: we'd love to, but . . .
            if you're a Palestinian: surrender first, and be satisfied with the crumbs
            if you're a Crimean: NO
            (etc. etc. etc.)

            Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

            by corvo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 08:13:49 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is a melanin dependent continuum (5+ / 0-)

              best I can tell.

              •  Indeed this is largely the case. (0+ / 0-)

                Not always, of course -- I doubt any Americans thought of Kosovars as whiter than Serbs (given our linguistic ignorance of "Albanian" as etymologically derived from a word meaning "white"), but we have a long history of promoting people to "whiteness" only once we decide they're sufficiently "one of us" -- or at least "white" in comparison to an even scarier racial threat.  Consider the history of the Irish, the Italians, and the Southern Slavs in our own country . . .

                Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                by corvo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 08:46:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Well, South Sudan is an exception (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  corvo

                  come to think of it.  But it surely pissed Russia off when we split up that country against their opposition.

                  Kosovo, South Sudan, Putin is just using same playbook we used to undermine Russian aspirations elsewhere.

                  •  Ultimately (0+ / 0-)

                    hegemony overrules ethnic considerations.  However, the non-whiteness of the parties involved does make it easier for us to cancel or ignore previously-made commitments.  Just ask the Kurds . . .

                    Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

                    by corvo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:01:03 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  So we were wrong to (0+ / 0-)

                    try and stop a massacre??

                    What would you do? Sit on your hands while the government of Sudan committed genocide?

                    Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

                    by OIL GUY on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 12:52:53 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  Excuse me, but (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eyesbright, Timaeus, OIL GUY

                  could you two find a room and do this thing you're doing, there, behind some closed doors?  It's sort of nauseating.

      •  Uh, that's how we acquired Hawaii, Puerto (4+ / 0-)

        Rico, the Phillipines (at one point) and all the land west of the Alleghenies.

        If only the Cherokee of Lakota had nuclear weapons.

        Not to mention, Crimea has historically never been part of Ukraine until Kruschev - a Ukrainian not exactly elected thru Jeffersonian electoral process - GAVE Crimea to Ukraine as a birthday present.

        Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

        by bobdevo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:23:20 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  It's cool when we did it (0+ / 0-)

        Or should we give California and the entire Southwest back to Mexico?

        •  That was 150 years ago. (0+ / 0-)

          Our actions were shameful, not unusual for the time.

          I don't condone many things the US government has done. I protested vociferously against the Vietnam War and I resisted the draft. I protested against the Iraq invasion.

          I know that the US has done a great deal of damage in the world, but that doesn't mean we should not speak out against other countries when they violate international law and the accepted norms of modern society.

          Here's my take on it - the revolution will not be blogged, it has to be slogged. - Deoliver47

          by OIL GUY on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 01:00:35 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  What if West Virginia and Virginia merged? (0+ / 0-)

            They used to be one state, they have very similar cultures, speak the same language and all. Is it really a crime against humanity if they went back to being one state?

            Can you explain exactly what the outrage is over?  Because I don't see it.

    •  Not nothing (9+ / 0-)

      The decision from 1954 was a reversal of the imperialist conquest. I.e. there was a reason for it. The later premiers were less communist and wanted to be sure to keep the population "Russian."

      So, "Go back to 1953, and it was Russian," but go back to before the Crimean War and it was Tartar, and go back before the Ottoman conquests. . . .

      That's the thing about historical arguments: there is no logical place to stop them. The actual response from the EU and US -- sanctions that will put a big hurt on the international trade of the Russian oligarchs -- is a good response to a take-over.

      "man, proud man,/ Drest in a little brief authority,. . . Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven/ As make the angels weep; who, with our spleens,/ Would all themselves laugh mortal." -- Shakespeare, Measure for Measure II ii, 117-23

      by The Geogre on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:15:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You know, I'm fine with tariffs. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Geogre

        I don't like "free" trade anyway, so slap a few tariffs on Russian exports.  Call them sanctions if that makes you feel better.  It's really just going back to proper international trade.

        •  If they target the kleptocracy, even better (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Norm in Chicago

          EU nations need to wean from Russian natural gas and coal. Check.
          Russian allies of Putin are the surviving oligarchs who consolidated state owned industries into private control, and they are atop immense wealth. They need international trade to stay liquid and to dodge taxes.

          So, if Putin's allies hurt, Putin hurts. Meanwhile, if prices go up on Russian commodities, it helps give price breaks to green energy alternatives and accelerates transitions, where possible. (Unfortunately, electricity isn't everything.)

          "man, proud man,/ Drest in a little brief authority,. . . Plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven/ As make the angels weep; who, with our spleens,/ Would all themselves laugh mortal." -- Shakespeare, Measure for Measure II ii, 117-23

          by The Geogre on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 10:27:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  It wasn't a nationwide vote. (5+ / 0-)

      We went to war over a similar call for secession.

    •  Vote (5+ / 0-)

      Except, there was no way to vote no!! Kind of makes it in-valid, no???

    •  You could say the same thing about Latvia (0+ / 0-)

      and Lithuania.  So should we kick them out of NATO now before we end up in a war over them?  After all, they were part of Russia back then and Russia has the same historical right to them as they do to Crimea.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 10:11:34 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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