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View Diary: Putin Propagandist Threatens US with Nuclear Annihilation over Ukraine (182 comments)

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  •  They report that "96.7%" of the Crimeans (19+ / 0-)

    voted to merge with Russia.  Sure.  Obviously it was as rigged as any election in history.

    But Norm says

    The people of Crimea voted, I think we should respect that vote.
    That's really gagworthy.
    •  Well...it's not that cut and dry..... (5+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      aimeehs, marsanges, ER Doc, ColoTim, ArthurPoet
      At first glance, the scene at the polling station at Simferopol's High School Number Nine looked little different to a routine local election in England. The queues outside the school were orderly, and there was no sign of intimidation. Nor, however, was there much in the way of real choice on the ballot paper.

      Option one was to reunify with Russia. Option two was to declare de facto independence from the rest of Ukraine. Option three – to remain as part of Ukraine as before – did not have a box.

      Perhaps not surprisingly, therefore, most of those who turned out to vote yesterday were firmly in favour of the options for which there was a box to tick.

      and.....
      The turnout in Crimea’s referendum on the future of the peninsula reached 44.27 % of those eligible to vote
      Not a great percentage given the two choices to vote on -

      If the number is accurate and 44.27% voted - there's a problem with the results.

      The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only legitimate object of good government. - Thomas Jefferson

      by ctexrep on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 08:07:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  If you don't vote, you don't count (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      hassanm

      Why did people boycott the vote?  Makes no sense to just stay home and not be counted.  Especially if you're claiming they were the majority.

      Do you claim every US election is illegitimate when the number of people staying home is greater than those who vote?

      •  They didn't have option to vote for staying with (7+ / 0-)

        Ukraine...
        they could vote to Leave Ukraine and join russia
        or leave Ukraine and be independent state.
        all of their energy is imported, even electricity
        and so on.

        Let's say we had a choice of voting for rick sanatorium or herman cain. Would you go vote?

        •  No one owns a pen? (0+ / 0-)

          If my choice was Santorum or Cain, I wouldn't just stay home and pout and refuse to vote, thinking that somehow gave me a noble legitimacy.

          Instead, I would take a pen, and write in the candidate of my choice.  And I would convince others to do the same.

          But there was a choice.  To join Russia or not join Russia.  If the vote for independent state had won, they could have decided later to not actually leave Ukraine.

          •  We have write-in boxes on our ballots. (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Timaeus, ColoTim, ArthurPoet, Lawrence

            The Ukrainians didn't.

            There was no option for them to vote against secession.

            Art is the handmaid of human good.

            by joe from Lowell on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:55:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Fine, but look (0+ / 0-)

              I'm living in Illinois.  Say Canada decides that Chicago is really part of Canada, since it's on the Great Lakes.  And we get a vote that says:

              A)  Secede from the US and become part of Canada
              B)  Secede from the US and become and independent state.

              Well, I'd rather be an independent state than part of Canada.  And an independent state has the ability to do things, like not secede at all at the end of the day.

              Makes a hell of a lot more sense than to just stay home and pout, and then say I had no voice.

              •  Are you for real? (0+ / 0-)

                Ukraine never agreed to this referendum that Putin created.  So what's the mechanism for implementing the results of either option on the ballot?  Russian military force, that's what.  Both the "independence" and "annexation" options are to be implemented via Russian invasion, which has already occurred.

                The Putin apologists should at least now propose a legitimate way to implement the annexation.  The way I see it, Putin should now offer to buy Crimea for trillions of dollars.  It would still be outrageous since Ukraine would have to accept the offer at the point of a gun, but Putin could at least claim he gave Ukraine due compensation.

                •  Crimea never agreed to be traded to Ukraine (0+ / 0-)

                  How would you like it if one day you woke up to find out that your state had just been given to either Canada or Mexico?  No vote, no say in the matter, just done, traded away like a baseball card.

                  And due compensation?  For what?  Ukraine didn't buy Crimea in the first place.  So what do they need to be compensated for?

                  Why is some politician in Kiev entitled to the wealth production of the people of Crimea because of a 1954 Soviet communist decision?  How does that make any sense?

                  Ukraine didn't buy Crimea, so it can't sell Crimea.

          •  Actually, given those choices (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            ColoTim

            most people in this country would like go 'meh' and stay home.

            It's the very, very rare election that has a write-in candidate win. And even then, they have to be really well known, and probably the incumbent who didn't get on the ballot for some reason (Lisa Murkowski comes to mind).

            •  And just like in this country... (0+ / 0-)

              The people who say 'meh' get what's given to them, and what they think doesn't matter.  Because they said 'meh'.  That was their vote.

              But did you see my post on Hawaii?  What of the 65% of Hawaiian voters who said 'meh' on the Statehood question.  Does that mean Hawaii isn't a state?

            •  The incumbent (remain with Ukraine) wasn't on (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Norm in Chicago, auron renouille

              this ballot, so people had no effective opportunity to write-in that choice.

              •  You don't see that as a follow-up? (0+ / 0-)

                This election was about one thing:  Accept Russia, or reject Russia.  A vote for independence can always later become a vote to stay with Ukraine.

                A vote to join Russia only has one interpretation, and that's what won.

                Those who stayed home should have voted for independence if they had the greater numbers.  Never EVER stay home and pout.

                •  No - for the vote to have hoped to be valid, they (3+ / 0-)

                  needed a choice to remain right where they were.  

                •  No, the vote "accept Russia now or later." nt. (0+ / 0-)

                  There was no option to politely decline the occupation troops.

                  Are you really so jaded that you can't see a sham election when it's right in front of your eyes?

                  "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

                  by auron renouille on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:26:14 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I just don't really care (0+ / 0-)

                    Crimea used to be part of Russia until it was traded to Ukraine through internal Soviet politics.  With the collapse of the Soviet Union, I just don't see why anything that happened during Soviet times is sacred.  It was Russia and it still is Russia.  Why do you say it has to be Ukranian.

                    As I also posted, the Hawaiian vote for Statehood was also a sham election.  We were never going to leave Pearl Harbor.  So it was accept the US now, or later for Hawaii also.

                    If Crimea can't be a part of Russia, than Hawaii isn't a state, and Obama isn't our President.  Try and be consistent about these things.

            •  I encourage people to vote in every election here, (0+ / 0-)

              however small, but that election was such a farce that I think a boycott was the only plausible response to it.  It's not at all the same as picking the least-bad option for a representative - the simple act of voting legitimizes secession, and the only way to oppose secession and support the status quo was to not vote.

              "The first drawback of anger is that it destroys your inner peace; the second is that it distorts your view of reality. If you come to understand that anger is really unhelpful, you can begin to distance yourself from anger." - The Dalai Lama

              by auron renouille on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:24:32 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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