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View Diary: Putin Propagandist Threatens US with Nuclear Annihilation over Ukraine (182 comments)

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  •  We, along with the E.U., should come up with a (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    amyzex

    Marshall Plan for Ukraine.

    It worked well in Germany, it can work well in Ukraine.

    "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

    by Lawrence on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 06:57:28 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  EU beat us to it. (6+ / 0-)

      $15 billion, at least $11 billion of which in the form of loans that have to be repaid to -- you guessed it -- international banks.

      Welcome to Greece, Ukraine!

      Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

      by corvo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:09:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  That's our corpse to pick," said the bank cartel.* (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo, whizdom, Johnny Q

        Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

        by k9disc on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:32:00 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Contrary to what some people may think, Greece (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        marsanges

        , even in its current state, is not the hellhole that some would like to make it out to be.

        Many Ukrainians would, in fact, be happy to have Greek living standards.

        That being said, a Ukrainian Marshall Plan should involve more grants and lots of technical help.

        "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

        by Lawrence on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:35:17 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  . . . grants coming from whom, exactly? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          limpidglass, native, Johnny Q

          The EU has already expressed its preferences.  The only way Ukraine is getting money out of our political establishment is by further cuts to pensions and other public benefits.  You really want to go there?

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:40:44 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nonsense. (0+ / 0-)

            The West, including Europe, has plenty of reserves.

            All that would have to be done is raise taxes on the very wealthy by less than 1% and Ukraine would be swimming in cash, with lots left over to boost social spending in Western Nations.

            "A candle loses nothing by lighting another candle" - Mohammed Nabbous, R.I.P.

            by Lawrence on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:53:18 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In Western Europe that might be (0+ / 0-)

              -- might be -- remotely possible.  In our current political climate it's unthinkable.

              Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

              by corvo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 08:10:40 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  I'd prefer a Marshall Plan for Detroit, (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mmacdDE, ColoTim, Johnny Q, Meteor Blades

          if we're going to be doling out more grants and technical help.

    •  snort (5+ / 0-)

      Obama is willing to pony up only a lousy $1 billion. That's in loan guarantees, so it will have to be repaid. The EU will make only $4 billion available over the next year; the best estimate is $11 billion over the next six years. Again, all this money comes with strings.

      There is no way the IMF will dare violate its precious conditionality rules for Ukraine. If they do, half the eurozone will rise up and demand the same terms. It could potentially trigger a eurozone exit. Does anyone really think Spain with 20% unemployment (50% youth unemployment) is going to countenance Ukraine being given a sweetheart deal?

      If they really gave a shit, they could have offered a better deal while Yanukovych was still on the fence. They didn't, so it tells you how much they really value Ukraine.

      The IMF is the world's most powerful predatory lender, and when Russia tried to undercut them, they kneecapped the Ukrainian government. That's all. A credible alternative lender is unwelcome competition, so you stop anyone who tries to do business with them and pretty soon everyone gets the message. Any mafia boss knows that much.

      This is not the post-war age where the Western democracies actually cared about economic development, and subscribed to the rising-tide-lifts-all-boats philosophy. This is the age of predatory casino capitalism, of austerity, of asset-stripping.

      Does anyone really believe the EU will do better by Ukraine than it did by Greece--one of its own members?

      The EU loves to go on and on about how enlightened it is and how awesome their democracy and freedoms are. But talk is cheap. As Cuba Gooding Jr. said in Jerry Maguire: "Show me the money!"

      "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

      by limpidglass on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 07:30:28 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  How about a Marshall Plan for the US (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      native, Lepanto, Johnny Q

      before we start shipping $$$ overseas?

      Fiat justitia ruat caelum "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."

      by bobdevo on Mon Mar 17, 2014 at 09:25:00 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Brussels has probably already (0+ / 0-)

      done the studies and such.  And they have the money, though it's not wise of them to say so.  Of course it's going to cost a lot more in the long run than anyone is willing to put on the table now.  These things always do.

      The problem is that at present no one knows how much of present Ukraine will be under governance of Kiev and any rule of law regime.  No use investing in eastern Ukraine if it's going to be governed from Moscow, which means oligarchs and political appointees who can and will and even will be under orders to steal and subvert it.

      I used to think Ukraine would divide into halves due to unified ethnic Russian insistence.  That is proving much lesser than I expected.  With northern-western Ukraine not in doubt, Kiev can probably now viably insist on keeping at least the least ethnic Russian/most rural two thirds  or three quarters of southern-eastern Ukraine.  Ceding Crimea  but keeping claim on it as a bargaining chip for which to get concession on something in return, e.g. Odessa, the argument seems to be slowly narrowing focus to the largest eastern cities.  Which Kiev might be wise to not want to keep.

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